Allow Evil to Exist

[Starman3000m]

2Lazy asked about the possibility of sin occurring in heaven once, and I thought it was an intriguing question, but I never saw an answer.

God reigns as our Pure, Holy and Righteous Creator in a Spiritual dimension (Heaven) that is eternal and eternally free of sin. No sin in Heaven.

So why will things be different in the future heaven than they were when 1heaven was created - the time when Satan rebelled?

We will be there as resurrected beings,and a new creation saved by God's Grace for choosing to believe in His Plan of Salvation through the Atoning Blood of Christ. (1 John 3:2; Philippians 3:20-21)

At the time Satan was in Heaven, he and other angels turned against God by their own choice and were then cast out. When we are there it will be because of our choice to turn from Satan's control, repent and call upon Jesus for Forgiveness and Grace of God that lets us into Heaven. That's God's Plan of Salvation; through Jesus Christ and it is offered to all mankind - but a person must choose whether to believe God or not believe God for their salvation.

Why did God allow total free will at first but won't the next time around? As Psy alluded to earlier, if free will is removed or restricted does that not indicate an imbalance?

People in Heaven will be transformed with a renewed mind that will live in eternal peace and harmony in the worship of God because they chose to trust Him. The renewed mind will be perfected in that any free will would not be in opposition to God in any manner as when it was easily influenced by Satan's deceptions and temptations to do wrong. In other words, you may have a free choice but never be of the mind to give thought to doing anything except what is right and pure.

Again, why will that be different from the first time around?

Saved people will be there whereas our type of creation did not exist at that time. We will be able to glorify God before His angels in testimony of how we were once lost in our sins but were spared His Judgment by the Grace of God through the Atoning Blood of Christ who was sent to save our souls.

Because of this period of peace? Seems odd that Jesus performed miracles the first time and people doubted but Jesus will supposedly perform more miracles in the future but no one will doubt then.

The first time Jesus was here, he was rejected by the world. The next time He appears in the Millennial reign, all people will accept Him and know Him as being King of Kings and Lord of Lords. There will be God's Peace on Earth and goodwill toward men.

Satan must be the biggest idiot ever to challenge God despite knowing he will lose.

What if Satan changed his mind and repented?

According to the Holy Bible, Satan does not repent nor do the fallen angels that he influenced from the beginning. They meet an eternal fate.

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
(Jude 1:5-7)


And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

 

[Starman3000m]

I guess for you that was brief.



You know I'm talking about free will to choose between good and evil; not things.

When all is said and done, it's my impression those that chose to believe wont have that free will anymore. The choice between good and evil will be gone. The desire to do evil will be gone. The nature of things will not be the same.

Things WILL be just as everyone that questions God's reasoning; no more evil. So my question was to answer the question "why did God created evil" by pointing out that this day will come. But for now we have to deal with the nature of how God made things now. That's just the way it is.

With the acquired knowledge of Good and Evil, it is our choice of what to do and which direction to take.

The resulting "why" is most likely the test to see who truly chooses to love and obey God because they want to - not because they were made to.

IOW: Forcing someone to love you would not be a sincere love. God wants those who genuinely choose to want Him.

I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
(Proverbs 8:17}

 

[hvp05]

The only way to know that good exists, and to experience the good, is to have bad exist as well. If all that existed was good, how would you know it was good and not just bland-normal?

Silly question to me.

So you think God's original creation was "silly". After all, he did create us without the knowledge of evil, and the obvious intent that he never wanted us to understand it. If there must be an understanding of evil to appreciate good, why were Adam and Eve ejected from the Garden?

When we are there it will be because of our choice to turn from Satan's control, repent and call upon Jesus for Forgiveness and Grace of God that lets us into Heaven.

So no sin, or even the slightest of questioning, will be possible in heaven?

In other words, you may have a free choice but never be of the mind to give thought to doing anything except what is right and pure.

This sounds like the world in "The Invention of Lying".

We will be able to glorify God before His angels in testimony...

You still have to worship him once being accepted into heaven? I figured all the testing would be over, you would simply be.

The first time Jesus was here, he was rejected by the world. The next time He appears in the Millennial reign, all people will accept Him and know Him as being King of Kings and Lord of Lords. There will be God's Peace on Earth and goodwill toward men.

That's a restatement of what you already said without answering the question. Why will people accept him when they rejected him before?

According to the Holy Bible, Satan does not repent nor do the fallen angels that he influenced from the beginning. They meet an eternal fate.

So this also is not possible? Satan can never come to his senses and say, "Ya know what? I was an idiot. I'm sorry. I accept you as my Lord again?"

 

[Starman3000m]

...So no sin, or even the slightest of questioning, will be possible in heaven?

No sin at all. Heaven is and will continue to be a perfect, sinless and Holy environment.

You still have to worship him once being accepted into heaven? I figured all the testing would be over, you would simply be.

It will not be a matter of "having" to worship God; it will be the desire of wanting to worship and praise and glorify Almighty God - as it should be with believers today in the here and now.

That's a restatement of what you already said without answering the question. Why will people accept him when they rejected him before?

The Millennial Kingdom of God will be comprised of believers. Many will be resurrected from the dead to live and reign with Christ throughout this period.
People who rejected Him won't be there and Satan will be chained up so no one is influenced by him during that time.

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

So this also is not possible? Satan can never come to his senses and say, "Ya know what? I was an idiot. I'm sorry. I accept you as my Lord again?"

Not according to the Holy Bible. Satan, the fallen angels and souls of those who chose to believe Satan have sealed their eternal fate and will receive the Judgment of God that is due.

BTW: Here is a prophetic glimpse of what Heaven will be like.

Revelation 22

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

 

[PsyOps]

With the acquired knowledge of Good and Evil, it is our choice of what to do and which direction to take.

The resulting "why" is most likely the test to see who truly chooses to love and obey God because they want to - not because they were made to.

IOW: Forcing someone to love you would not be a sincere love. God wants those who genuinely choose to want Him.

It is our choice now. Once God has fulfilled his will, and the end-of-times have passed, and evil no longer exists we wont have that choice.

 

[Starman3000m]

It is our choice now. Once God has fulfilled his will, and the end-of-times have passed, and evil no longer exists we wont have that choice.

Correcto Mundo! Yes, the free will Now is choosing between good and evil.

However, don't you believe that we will have some kind of free will in Heaven to do other things that are good and pure?

I don't think we will be like robots but will have the ability of interaction with God/Jesus Christ and with one with another. Heaven will be a perfect paradise environment where we can enjoy the new creation that God has for us. Whatever the bounds of Heaven are, I believe we will be given the ability to enjoy the pleasures of the Heaven that God has in store. If you choose to go to one part of Heaven or another, will that not be a choice of free-will of what you are doing?

 

[2lazy2P]

God reigns as our Pure, Holy and Righteous Creator in a Spiritual dimension (Heaven) that is eternal and eternally free of sin. No sin in Heaven.

No sin in Heaven? How well did that idea work out the first time with Satan?

Saved people will be there whereas our type of creation did not exist at that time. We will be able to glorify God before His angels in testimony of how we were once lost in our sins but were spared His Judgment by the Grace of God through the Atoning Blood of Christ who was sent to save our souls.

So back to square one and "pray to God" that history doesn't repeat itself?

 

[PsyOps]

Correcto Mundo! Yes, the free will Now is choosing between good and evil.

However, don't you believe that we will have some kind of free will in Heaven to do other things that are good and pure?

I don't think we will be like robots but will have the ability of interaction with God/Jesus Christ and with one with another. Heaven will be a perfect paradise environment where we can enjoy the new creation that God has for us. Whatever the bounds of Heaven are, I believe we will be given the ability to enjoy the pleasures of the Heaven that God has in store. If you choose to go to one part of Heaven or another, will that not be a choice of free-will of what you are doing?

This thread is about good and evil and why God created evil and why we have a choice between the two, not our free will to choose Levis over Wranglers.

I wasn’t assuming we’d be like robots, I am just saying based on the bible evil will no longer exist, therefore that choice will no longer be available. This question doesn’t come from a frame of mind of questioning or doubting the validity of it. I accept that the nature of things that we live in today will be quite different beyond the end of days. I have no idea what it will look like from the standpoint of being able to make other choices. Will we have a need for food, clothes, cars, suntan lotion…? I don’t know and am not really concerned with that. If we still have free will at that time, will we still remember that evil existed? If so, how will we deal with exercising that free will having that prior knowledge? Or will God completely erase it from our memories. These are rhetorical questions that I’m not necessarily looking for answers. Just throwing them out there for thought.

I completely realize we’re dealing with things spiritual and not physical, so my questions are from that humanistic/physical frame-of-mind and may not have much application in the spiritual world. But they are curiosities of mine.

 

[atheos]

I've always found it a silly question - why there's good and evil together. It's like asking why there's an up and a down: how do you have one without the other?

The only way to know that good exists, and to experience the good, is to have bad exist as well. If all that existed was good, how would you know it was good and not just bland-normal?

Silly question to me.

So there is no Evil in the new Heaven after the second coming. How does one know that Heaven is Good since there is no Evil?

 

[PsyOps]

No sin in Heaven? How well did that idea work out the first time with Satan?

And this frames my question... if it happened once can it happen again? Or, this time around, will God remove our capability to sin? It's obvious in the beginning God cast out Lucifer and allowed him to reign on this earth and temp up. God allowed this to happen. This will be destroyed in the end. So it's my belief that God will not allow us to go through this again. But the question along those lines is if he is to wipe the slate clean in the end, why didn't He just do that to begin with? It seems a strange way to do things; but He is God and this is His creation and He can do with it as He pleases. I have to at least accept that.

 

[Starman3000m]

No sin in Heaven? How well did that idea work out the first time with Satan?



So back to square one and "pray to God" that history doesn't repeat itself?

Satan and the order of angels from which he was created were made perfect but with the added ability to choose whether to worship God or not.
The "sin" that Satan committed in Heaven was that of prideful and willful disobedience to the Authority of God and wishing that he (Satan) could be like God and even replace God.

Many of us have experienced that type of situation in employment. Either you think your boss is a nerd and that you could do a better job.

Or, in the case of the Boss, one subordinate employee is mouthy, turns other employees against you and tries to take over your position thinking he/she could do a better job.

According to the Holy Bible, that history will not repeat itself. The New Heaven and New Earth mentioned in Revelation is an eternal one with God and His Heavenly Host to be enjoyed by we who are His Children forever.

However, as mentioned earlier, our choice of an eternal destiny is today, in the here and now while there is time to reflect on who God is and if one really wants to believe God or not believe God.

God patiently offers mankind the choice to make while there is still time:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

Any soul that perishes is because they chose to not believe that they needed a Saviour or they chose the wrong Saviour and didn't choose the New Testament Jesus Christ.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:22-23)

There Is Only One Truth (John 14:6)

 

[hvp05]

It will not be a matter of "having" to worship God; it will be the desire of wanting to worship and praise and glorify Almighty God - as it should be with believers today in the here and now.

I see. Interesting.

Not according to the Holy Bible. Satan, the fallen angels and souls of those who chose to believe Satan have sealed their eternal fate and will receive the Judgment of God that is due.

So why does he (Satan) bother if he already knows he will lose? It's not like there's a doubt of that endpoint; he does not need faith to believe since he himself is a spiritual being.

BTW: Here is a prophetic glimpse of what Heaven will be like.

How pleasant. Quite the construction you have there.

 

[2lazy2P]

God patiently offers mankind the choice to make while there is still time:



Any soul that perishes is because they chose to not believe that they needed a Saviour or they chose the wrong Saviour and didn't choose the New Testament Jesus Christ.



There Is Only One Truth (John 14:6)

And we have a millennium AFTER Jesus takes the thrown in Jerusalem to realize there is one true God. And as long as we have been living a decent life - we can still turn our unbelief in God into a belief since we now see it with our own eyes and earn our way into Heaven?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

 

[hvp05]

If we still have free will at that time, will we still remember that evil existed? If so, how will we deal with exercising that free will having that prior knowledge? Or will God completely erase it from our memories.

He did touch on that yesterday...

We will be able to glorify God before His angels in testimony of how we were once lost in our sins but were spared His Judgment by the Grace of God through the Atoning Blood of Christ who was sent to save our souls.

To me, that implies we will have memories. Which raises the question of how we can have memories of sin in the environment of heaven's perfection.

 

[2lazy2P]

And this frames my question... if it happened once can it happen again? Or, this time around, will God remove our capability to sin? It's obvious in the beginning God cast out Lucifer and allowed him to reign on this earth and temp up. God allowed this to happen. This will be destroyed in the end. So it's my belief that God will not allow us to go through this again. But the question along those lines is if he is to wipe the slate clean in the end, why didn't He just do that to begin with? It seems a strange way to do things; but He is God and this is His creation and He can do with it as He pleases. I have to at least accept that.

I know. Of course what the issue is (and where my non-belief begins and ends in the first place) I try to wrap my human mind around a spiritual world. Just doesn't add up to me. Like This_person stated. How can you know what Good is without Evil? And atheos make a response. What I think he was trying to say is if God erases all memory of a past life. How will we live in Heaven and never fully understand how good it is? Don't you need something bad in turn to realize how good you have it? Maybe this is what Satan's issue was. Since he was the first creation to Sin - he did it because he did not know what the difference was. He didn't know the difference between Good and Evil so he did what he thought was right. Of course ended up being the wrong decision in the end for him because know he gets to go live in a lake of fire for eternity. But can you blame him for toeing the line and not knowing what was on the other side of the fence since he didn’t have anybody else’s prior experience to base his judgment off? <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

 

[Starman3000m]

And we have a millennium AFTER Jesus takes the thrown in Jerusalem to realize there is one true God. And as long as we have been living a decent life - we can still turn our unbelief in God into a belief since we now see it with our own eyes and earn our way into Heaven?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

No. When the Millennial reign occurs there are no "carry-overs" (physically live people) that transition from this present time into the Millennial period.
However, those believers in Christ who had been beheaded by antichrist during the Great Tribulation will be resurrected to live and reign during those thousand years.

Our choice to accept the New Testament Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour is now in this present age of our life and this side of the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[2lazy2P]

No. When the Millennial reign occurs there are no "carry-overs" (physically live people) that transition from this present time into the Millennial period.
However, those believers in Christ who had been beheaded by antichrist during the Great Tribulation will be resurrected to live and reign during those thousand years.

Our choice to accept the New Testament Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour is now in this present age of our life and this side of the Millennial Kingdom.

Darn

 

[hvp05]

Maybe this is what Satan's issue was. Since he was the first creation to Sin - he did it because he did not know what the difference was. He didn't know the difference between Good and Evil so he did what he thought was right. Of course ended up being the wrong decision in the end for him because know he gets to go live in a lake of fire for eternity.

That does make one wonder what Satan's literal actions were to earn him an eternity apart from God. SM makes it sound as if his "disobedience" was a forceful, even violent, opposition. I am also labeled as being "disobedient" to God and "rejecting" God when all I am really doing is asking questions. Could that have been the case with Satan? As I said a little while ago, he knows God exists because he has interacted with him, but there could be a legitimate matter of Satan not knowing the consequences of his actions. God could not have threatened to send him to hell because it did not yet exist.

However, those believers in Christ who had been beheaded by antichrist during the Great Tribulation will be resurrected to live and reign during those thousand years.

Decapitated ghosts wandering the earth... this is great!!

 

[2lazy2P]

That does make one wonder what Satan's literal actions were to earn him an eternity apart from God. SM makes it sound as if his "disobedience" was a forceful, even violent, opposition. I am also labeled as being "disobedient" to God and "rejecting" God when all I am really doing is asking questions. Could that have been the case with Satan? As I said a little while ago, he knows God exists because he has interacted with him, but there could be a legitimate matter of Satan not knowing the consequences of his actions. God could not have threatened to send him to hell because it did not yet exist.

And even if God did say I will banish you to a place and then explained the evilness and tortuous of this place - Satan again had nothing to base it on because Evil did not yet exist in Heaven and Earth at that time. I am starting to think Satan got the short end of this deal. Poor archangel probably told God he didn't want to finish his Green Beans and BAM! To future Hell with you!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

 

[Starman3000m]

And even if God did say I will banish you to a place and then explained the evilness and tortuous of this place - Satan again had nothing to base it on because Evil did not yet exist in Heaven and Earth at that time. I am starting to think Satan got the short end of this deal. Poor archangel probably told God he didn't want to finish his Green Beans and BAM! To future Hell with you!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

Ok, Ok... It was the dessert that did it.

Your Choice: Angel Food Cake or Devil's Food Cake.