2lazy2P
nothing unreal exists
Ok, Ok... It was the dessert that did it.
Your Choice: Angel Food Cake or Devil's Food Cake.
Allow Evil to Exist
- Thread starter 2lazy2P
- Start date
This_person
Well-Known Member
Not sure why you believe he intended for us not to ever understand.
But, the tree from which mankind ate was not tree of the knowledge of evil, it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (see Genesis 2:9 and 2:17). :shrug: Seems obvious to me they understood neither until they understood both.
This_person
Well-Known Member
One has been exposed to evil to understand the difference.
2lazy2P
nothing unreal exists
So by your account, evil will always continue to exist, even after the second coming?
2lazy2P
nothing unreal exists
SO God intentions all along were to banish us from the Garden of Eden and know death?
Starman3000m
New Member
Actualy, it appears that God's intention was to see how well we could follow His Instructions. (Free will) Adam and Eve were in a perfect environment to begin with. Had they first eaten of the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden (which they were allowed to eat from) they would have remained in an eternal fellowship with God and there would have been no sin.
But, oh no, along comes Satan and tells Eve that it's Okay to take a bite of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and that they would not die as God warned but that they could become as gods themselves.
So, the test was one of obedience. Adam and Eve believed in God but they did not believe God. That's the case today. People can say that they "believe in God" but when the test comes through for following His Will, they don't believe God.
Midnight
Imaginary
But...sin and evil would have to exsist for the tree of knowledge to exsist in the first place right? Also, it's not exactly free will when someone is ignorant to the consequences of their actions. What reason did they have not to trust Satan when they didn't know what evil was or how to identify it? Other than Gods' threat about things they had no comprehension of, they had no clue.
Starman3000m
New Member
Satan was already the representative of sin and evil as a result of his prior disobedience and defiance of God in Heaven. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil could be considered as having a "poisonous and mind altering affect" that would result in conscious awareness of right and wrong and, ultimately, death if eaten. That was why God warned Adam and Eve not to partake of that tree.
It's called disobedience that results from "free-will" to take an action contrary to a warning. For example: You tell your child not to touch the hot-plate on a stove because if he/she does it will burn their fingers. They are ignorant of what it means to get their fingers burned. So, they defy your warning, touch the hot-plate and then find out what BURN means.
That's the whole point. Adam and Eve were cognizant of what God had warned them about but still chose to believe that Satan was telling them the truth rather than God. Same is true today with Satan's spiritual deceptions. People are deceived by Satan into thinking that there really is no God, or that Hell does not exist, or leads them into following the "wrong Jesus," etc.
Last edited:
hvp05
Methodically disorganized
I know you're going to play your game of semantics and technicalities ("That doesn't mean what it obviously means, as long as you view it from a certain point of view."), but I will not get into a 20-page tennis match with you like UNA.
You referenced Genesis 2:17 but want to put your spin on it.
So why were they put in the Garden to begin with? If they HAD to know evil to understand good, what was the purpose of the Garden? Further, why was eating of the tree considered a sin? God could have tested their obedience in other ways independent of the knowledge of good and evil that would have made much more sense. :shrug:
hvp05
Methodically disorganized
This is quite the paradox: they HAD to know evil to understand good, but God told them not to do so. Did he truly want us to know and be good or to simply follow orders? Satan existed, but why allow Satan to set up shop - via the tree - in the Garden?
It's a cute story, but it falls apart in so many ways. I think it's easier to admit that people are flawed from the start... the way nature made us.
Midnight
Imaginary
I'm not saying that they wouldn't learn anything from it, i'm simply saying that it wouldn't be right to punish a child in that situation if they had no idea what "hot" meant in the first place.
But it doesn't sound like they would have been cognizant. How could God expect them to listen to him knowing that they didn't understand the consequences because they didn't know what evil was. If you tell a child "that's bad", they know what you are saying because even children understand what the word bad means. But if Adam and Eve didn't know what death or evil was, how would they know that they were bad? He threatened them with things that wouldn't have been threatening unless you knew what they were...which they didn't.
Last edited:
Midnight
Imaginary
I know you're going to play your game of semantics and technicalities ("That doesn't mean what it obviously means, as long as you view it from a certain point of view."), but I will not get into a 20-page tennis match with you like UNA.
You referenced Genesis 2:17 but want to put your spin on it.Per your interpretation, when God said, "... you must not eat from the tree...," he was not trying to prevent them from eating from it. Right.
So why were they put in the Garden to begin with? If they HAD to know evil to understand good, what was the purpose of the Garden? Further, why was eating of the tree considered a sin? God could have tested their obedience in other ways independent of the knowledge of good and evil that would have made much more sense. :shrug:
This is EXACTLY what i'm saying. What if i walked up to you and said "Pardon me....i just wanted to tell you that if you eat that peice of fruit you will ^&^#$&$@^*@$^". And you would say "wtf does that mean? is that a good thing or a bad thing? oh well!" To them, death and evil were another language, how would they know what they were doing? Maybe teaching them what loss was first on a smaller scale would have made more sense to me then "hey kids don't do this thing that you know nothing about for unkown reasons or else i'll punish you for eternity".
hvp05
Methodically disorganized
To take a tip from "A Christmas Carol", if God had given them a glimpse of the future and allowed them to momentarily experience sadness, pain, death, shame, doubt, etc. I'm sure they would have obeyed him (for a while, anyway
).Again, this is why the human parent/child analogy is insufficient. Any parent who reprimanded their young child by kicking them out of the house and locking the door would be considered a grade A azzhole and put in jail.
Starman3000m
New Member
To take a tip from "A Christmas Carol", if God had given them a glimpse of the future and allowed them to momentarily experience sadness, pain, death, shame, doubt, etc. I'm sure they would have obeyed him (for a while, anyway
Again, this is why the human parent/child analogy is insufficient. Any parent who reprimanded their young child by kicking them out of the house and locking the door would be considered a grade A azzhole and put in jail.
The reason Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden was so that they would not have the chance to now go over to the Tree of Life, eat from it and then live eternally in a state of sin, disobedience and separation from God.
As to the "bad parent" claim; that really has nothing to do with the situation nor make it God's fault that Adam and Eve failed to believe Him. Again, using the analogy of a parent's warning: Child disobeys parent and gets burned. The child received the consequences of disobedience for failing to believe the parent.
God still provided Adam and Eve with coats of skins to cover their nakedness and still gave them reign upon the earth but with the hardships caused by the consequence of disobedience and the human mortality that came with it. All mankind has inherited that trait of disobedience since that time. (Just ask your parents)
However, God provides each individual the way back to spiritual reconciliation and Forgiveness for all those who place faith and belief in what His Grace offers through the Atoning Blood of Christ - as instructed in The New Testament.
This is what paves the way for each individual to escape the consequence of God's ultimate wrath of eternal death and gives the Promise of Salvation and Eternal Life in Heaven.
Either destiny is Your Choice.
Starman3000m
New Member
This_person
Well-Known Member
Anywhere? Of course. In Heaven, no. But, it will still exist, yes.
This_person
Well-Known Member
It seems clear God's intention all along was to allow us free will. The consequences of that are ours.
This_person
Well-Known Member
He absolutely was trying to prevent it. No two ways about it.You referenced Genesis 2:17 but want to put your spin on it.Per your interpretation, when God said, "... you must not eat from the tree...," he was not trying to prevent them from eating from it. Right.
But, the question I said I believe is silly is "why does God allow evil and not just good?" It's a stupid question, because one cannot exist without the other. Why is there an up but no down, a left but no right, a light but no dark, a good but no evil. It's a stupid question.
The response to my calling it a stupid question regarded Adam and Eve. Clearly, evil existed (how did Satan fall?), because mankind ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (not just evil). Thus, they knew neither until they knew both.
I never suggested God did not want for us to not know evil (or good, for that matter). But, He gave us free will, and we reap the consequences of that.
A place for mankind to exist. If the tree was the knowledge of good and evil, did they know either beforehand?
More sense to whom?
I don't have the arrogance to question God's methods. When I can create an entire universe including the concept of time, I may begin to get a little cocky, but until then I won't presume to make such judgements out of a combination of ignorance and arrogance.
This_person
Well-Known Member
This is quite the paradox: they HAD to know evil to understand good, but God told them not to do so. Did he truly want us to know and be good or to simply follow orders? Satan existed, but why allow Satan to set up shop - via the tree - in the Garden?
It's a cute story, but it falls apart in so many ways. I think it's easier to admit that people are flawed from the start... the way nature made us.
How does any of it "fall apart"?
Not having the physical ability to comprehend is not the same thing as "falling apart" by any stretch of the imagination.