Are you an Atheist or Agnostic?

[Novus Collectus]

I can go to the Smithsonian and SEE a moon rock.

Just a side note. You can touch a moon rock at the Smithsonian too.

 

[Novus Collectus]

...you know it wasn't counterfeit?

Then there would still be the assumption there was at least the possibility of a million counterfeit dollars.
Money is just a concept anyway that is a creation of mankind. It only seems tangible.

 

[Larry Gude]

Hmmm...

but for me it is math and probablilty alone because I have no faith. That is what makes me different than the theist...see?

...but, again, you have faith in math and probability because it is fact certain, yes? 1+1= 2 and 1:1,000,000 to win is very, very unlikely. Yet, intellectually, you also know that there may be a God, however remote in your mind, where as you know 1+1 = 3 simply does not, can not exist.

The existence of God and all that that entails can't be viewed as nonchallantly as winning the lottery.

 

[Larry Gude]

Good...

Then there would still be the assumption there was at least the possibility of a million counterfeit dollars.
Money is just a concept anyway that is a creation of mankind. It only seems tangible.

...answer.

 

[Larry Gude]

Well...

YOu see, if I had faith, I would probably be a theist. I do not have faith and I use math and probablities. I have a "trust" in the most likely and I use this most likelyhood for the practical while still leaving room for the possibility that none of this universe actually exists, or that I am the one true god. If I had faith or a "belief", then I would have faith in myself being the one true god and I would be a theist. That makes no practical sense to me and that is how I feel about a belief in other gods or faith/belief in general for me.

...we can settle that one right now.

How many fingers am I holding up?

 

[Novus Collectus]

...but, again, you have faith in math and probability because it is fact certain, yes? 1+1= 2 and 1:1,000,000 to win is very, very unlikely. Yet, intellectually, you also know that there may be a God, however remote in your mind, where as you know 1+1 = 3 simply does not, can not exist.

The existence of God and all that that entails can't be viewed as nonchallantly as winning the lottery.

But 1+1=3 could exists as far as I know because my "reality" could be a fabrication of my own mind or someone/somthing elses. The possibility gods exists therefore are as likley to me as 1+1=3. While both are ultimately possible because even reality can be non-existent, they are both almost ultimately improbable.
I trust there is a likleyhood, no matter how remote, that I can win the lottery, but for practical purposes I trust there is no likelyhood there are gods even though it is remotely possible.

 

[Larry Gude]

Therein...

So, no, I don't look at the evidence the same way.

I can't.

...lays the battleground I base my "We're all agnostics" argument. Not as an insult, but as an intellectual reasoning. Many theists will not cede even that much. Same for many atheists.

 

[Novus Collectus]

...we can settle that one right now.

How many fingers am I holding up?

 

[Larry Gude]

That spirals...

But 1+1=3 could exists as far as I know because my "reality" could be a fabrication of my own mind or someone/somthing elses. The possibility gods exists therefore are as likley to me as 1+1=3. While both are ultimately possible because even reality can be non-existent, they are both almost ultimately improbable.
I trust there is a likleyhood, no matter how remote, that I can win the lottery, but for practical purposes I trust there is no likelyhood there are gods even though it is remotely possible.

...off into the nether worlds of pointless debate, yes? I mean, if the, as I see it, absolute fact that 1+1=3 and that we are, in fact, alive and well and communicating is now on the table as a belief or faith, then are we not moving away from actually getting something out of this, a worthy endeavor, and towards entrenchment that there is nothing left to learn and no good reason to even be interested in this conversation in the first place?

 

[Larry Gude]

Again...

I trust there is a likleyhood, no matter how remote, that I can win the lottery, but for practical purposes I trust there is no likelyhood there are gods even though it is remotely possible.

...God is not a matter of long or short odds; He either is or is not and it will be known, or not, by all upon our death.

I know, in my mind, that I COULD win the lottery. It is possible. I know, in my mind, that there is no God of the Bible. There can not be. Yet, I can leave room to fully and freely admit I could be wrong as it is not actually knowable where lottery odds are.

 

[Novus Collectus]

...off into the nether worlds of pointless debate, yes? I mean, if the, as I see it, absolute fact that 1+1=3 and that we are, in fact, alive and well and communicating is now on the table as a belief or faith, then are we not moving away from actually getting something out of this, a worthy endeavor, and towards entrenchment that there is nothing left to learn and no good reason to even be interested in this conversation in the first place?

This is why I say that it is not always accurate to say an explicit atheist is really an agnostic simply because the atheist leaves room for the ultra remote possibility that 1+1=3 or the universe may not really exist.

I go with what is the most practical for living life (if it is really "life") and leaving any actual room for the possibility that 1+1=3 is simply not practical, so I "trust" 1+1 does not equal 3 just like I trust there is most likely no gods.

 

[Novus Collectus]

This reminds me. What do you call a philsophy grad with a Masters degree?










Pizza delivery driver.

 

[Larry Gude]

Now...

This is why I say that it is not always accurate to say an explicit atheist is really an agnostic simply because the atheist leaves room for the ultra remote possibility that 1+1=3 or the universe may not really exist.

I go with what is the most practical for living life (if it is really "life") and leaving any actual room for the possibility that 1+1=3 is simply not practical, so I "trust" 1+1 does not equal 3 just like I trust there is most likely no gods.

...I'm just arguing; You CAN'T see the possibility of 1+1=3 in the same light as a God possibility. One is possible, the other is not.

I'm just saying I see a clear distinction there.

 

[Novus Collectus]

...I'm just arguing; You CAN'T see the possibility of 1+1=3 in the same light as a God possibility. One is possible, the other is not.

I'm just saying I see a clear distinction there.

Actually, you see, I see both just as likely or unlikely just as I see me being the one true god or that reality does not exist as being just as unlikely. If any of the four is truly impossible, then they all would be to me and there really are no gods, but I cannot say for sure all four are impossible, just all incrediblyt unlikely.

....would you still consider me an agnostic because I believe there is still this 1+1=3 possibility of the existence of gods?

 

[Larry Gude]

No...

....would you still consider me an agnostic because I believe there is still this 1+1=3 possibility of the existence of gods?

...because I don't believe you see 1+1=3 and the existence of (a)God in the same way, literally. One is not possible. The other, however remote you see it, is. And it would explain alot of things.

 

[Novus Collectus]

...because I don't believe you see 1+1=3 and the existence of (a)God in the same way, literally. One is not possible. The other, however remote you see it, is. And it would explain alot of things.

I am trying to explain to you the idea that I leave room for the possibility there are gods is exactly the same as how I leave room for the possibility reality does not exist or that 1+1=3. I am an absolutist when it comes to what is possible and I truly leave room for the possibility 1+1=3 just the same amount I leave room for the possibility there are gods.

....so, knowing I see the possibility, even if so remote, there are gods as much as 1+1=3, you can see why it would be a stretch to call me an agnostic even though technically it is possible to call me one?

 

[Larry Gude]

Yep...

....so, knowing I see the possibility, even if so remote, there are gods as much as 1+1=3, you can see why it would be a stretch to call me an agnostic even though technically it is possible to call me one?

...and that explains it so that I can understand it.

You're crazy.


Just kidding!

 

[Marie]

Is Atheism a belief or lack of belief?

It takes more faith not to believe in God then it does to believe in God!
Let them prove it to you!
Heres is the link where he debated Dan Barker From the Freedom of Religion Foundation. Dan was a minister 16 years turned Agnostic of course he was never born again so I guess that makes him more a public speaker than a minister ;-)

http://www.wayofthemasterradio.com/podcast/2006/04/04/friel-barker-debate/

 

[Marie]

That’s just silly.

With the plethora of Gods available to us, through the various different religions, the difference between the number of Gods you believe in and I dont believe in, is 1.

Seems to me its harder figuring out which God you want to believe in, than to just not believe in any of them.

Only the one true God, has ever died come back to life and still lives today. The rest if they have taken a mans body are worm food today, nothing remains but their teachings!
How many of the others had prophecies come true word for word 600 years later and I think there was 350 different ones?
How many of these others raised anyone from the dead?
How many others never lied or were wrong?
How many others in their books taught medical and scientific principles before man had a clue?
Here’s the real kicker how many others dont require WORKS to earn your salvation but offer it as a free gift?
How many others provided a plan of redemption to a creation that he knew would turn from him before the creation of the world, solely to bring honor and glory to him?
I have looked at the rest and this by far is the best deal.
Last but not least how many others still today can answer specific prayer?
The way I see it there is only one true God.
And all it requires is humbling yourself and repentance and faith!

 

[Marie]

Thats the faith you have in your belief.

There are 30 other religions that believe differently.

Understood, but do they have the same proofs and validity?