Barack, from his own website

[FromTexas]

Nope. I know of pleanty that are here legally and work several minum wage jobs to support their family here and their family in their home counrty.

Well, if they only support their family here, it sounds like they could work less minimum wage jobs from your statement. Or are you saying that a "living wage" should be enough to support many families?

 

[camily]

Well, if they only support their family here, it sounds like they could work less minimum wage jobs from your statement. Or are you saying that a "living wage" should be enough to support many families?

No, I'm just saying that they work way harder, for way less money than most are willing to. I'm outta here, I have a graduation to go to.

 

[SamSpade]

Nope. I know of pleanty that are here legally and work several minum wage jobs to support their family here and their family in their home counrty.

Then I'm not sure why you'd single out Hispanics. They're not the only people who work more than one job that pays minimally. When I did tax returns, I had tons of people handing in handfuls of W-2's.

Statistically however, vrai is correct. There's only a slim fraction of laborers who try to support their family on a minimum wage - most minimum wage earners contribute their income to the rest of the household, or are teens and elderly working part-time. In addition, most states have a minimum wage above the federal, and in practice, in order to compete for the smaller labor pool, businesses in those states typically offer much better than minimum.

There's really very little need to raise it. And it's the economic equivalent of the government telling a business they can charge no more than a certain amount for their good or services.

 

[camily]

Then I'm not sure why you'd single out Hispanics. They're not the only people who work more than one job that pays minimally. When I did tax returns, I had tons of people handing in handfuls of W-2's.

Statistically however, vrai is correct. There's only a slim fraction of laborers who try to support their family on a minimum wage - most minimum wage earners contribute their income to the rest of the household, or are teens and elderly working part-time. In addition, most states have a minimum wage above the federal, and in practice, in order to compete for the smaller labor pool, businesses in those states typically offer much better than minimum.

There's really very little need to raise it. And it's the economic equivalent of the government telling a business they can charge no more than a certain amount for their good or services.

This is just typical dem. vs rep. that we see here all the time. I'm don't have time to play today.

 

[FromTexas]

No, I'm just saying that they work way harder, for way less money than most are willing to. I'm outta here, I have a graduation to go to.

Maybe because most aren't qualified for higher wages?

Immigrants compose an increasingly large share of the U.S. labor force and a growing share of low-wage workers. Immigrants are 11 percent of all U.S. residents, but 14 percent of all workers and 20 percent of low-wage workers.

Immigrants' hourly wages are lower on average than those for natives, and nearly half earn less than 200 percent of the minimum wage—versus one-third of native workers. (half earn less than double minimum wage - what percentage do you think earn only minimum wage?)

Immigrant workers are much more likely than natives to drop out of high school (30 versus 8 percent), and are far more likely to have less than a ninth-grade education (18 versus 1 percent).

Three-fourths of all U.S. workers with less than a ninth-grade education are immigrants.

Nearly two-thirds of low-wage immigrant workers do not speak English proficiently, and most of these workers have had little formal education.

Two of every five low-wage immigrant workers are undocumented. Labor force participation is higher among undocumented men than among men who are legal immigrants or U.S. citizens.

Hmmm, all immigrants are only 20% of the low wage workforce; half of those earn less than double the minimum wage; so that is 10% of the low wage workforce is both an immigrant and earns less than double minimum wage. Of that ratio, 2/5 are undocumented, so 6% of the total low wage workforce are immigrants and earn less than double the minimum wage.

Probably that means less than 3% of the low wage workforce is both a legal immigrant and earns close to minimum wage.

Not very compelling, Camily.

 

[FromTexas]

This is just typical dem. vs rep. that we see here all the time. I'm don't have time to play today.

Facts suck, don't they?

 

[vraiblonde]

This is just typical dem. vs rep. that we see here all the time. I'm don't have time to play today.

Okey dokey.

 

[SamSpade]

This is just typical dem. vs rep. that we see here all the time. I'm don't have time to play today.

Suit yourself. But you're right - it's called class warfare. Dems perpetrate it, because they gain votes by casting republicans as the bad guys, when in the long run, nobody gains anything by it.

It's a situation easily shown - minimum wage just makes people feel better. Since it was implemented back in the New Deal, it doesn't change anything except make people feel better about it.

In the short term, it costs jobs, because many businesses have a slim profit margin to begin with - increasing their payroll costs by 25% - which is what the latest increase will be - usually means that small businesses have to cut people because you can't raise your rates and prices over night.

So while Jorge got a raise - Jose went home with a box and a pink slip. Because when a business has to pay more to its employees but doesn't make any more money, someone has to go, and the rest have to make up the difference.

Because minimum wage affects businesses that hire minimum wage workers - they have to raise their rates to cover costs. So Jose gets his job back eventually, but now his paycheck buys less. In fact, it buys about what it bought BEFORE the raise.

So how does Jose compete? Job skills. You can't keep doing the same damned thing year after year and expect the government to see to it that your employer pays you more to do the same work. You improve your situation by gaining skills and education. Three fourths of all immigrant minimum wage earners have less than a ninth grade education and marginal understanding of English. Some years back, my family housed in their home and helped a whole family to learn English and gain enough skills to live comfortably on their own. They're all doing well now, and own their own business.

If Dems want to improve the lot of the poor, they'd drop the whole minimum wage thing and go for job training.

 

[vraiblonde]

If Dems want to improve the lot of the poor, they'd drop the whole minimum wage thing and go for job training.

There are already a zillion job training programs - kids even get it in high school. For free! And there's always the military. That's the best way I can think of to learn a trade while getting paid for it, plus better benefits than the WalMart.

The problem is that kids are lazy (you should look at the Calvert Sucks thread). They want money but they don't want to work. You say, "Well, why don't you..." and they reply, "Nah, that sucks - I don't wanna do that..."

So I think that if Dems want to do something for the poor, they'll leave them alone and let them sink or swim. Because I firmly believe the vast majority of them would swim.*

*EDIT: They would swim with the help of the job training programs already in place.

 

[vraiblonde]

Because minimum wage affects businesses that hire minimum wage workers - they have to raise their rates to cover costs.

I always find it shocking that this has to be explained to people - it should be pure common sense that anyone could deduce for themselves.

And what's even more shocking is that Barack Obama, along with the rest of the minimum wage champions, know how it works. And their voters are so dumb that they can get away with making silly proclamations on how raising the minimum wage will reduce poverty.

 

[Pushrod]

Facts suck, don't they?

Exactly what I was thinking. When the facts get thick, the Libs cut and run!

 

[SamSpade]

I always find it shocking that this has to be explained to people - it should be pure common sense that anyone could deduce for themselves.

And what's even more shocking is that Barack Obama, along with the rest of the minimum wage champions, know how it works. And their voters are so dumb that they can get away with making silly proclamations on how raising the minimum wage will reduce poverty.

And this is why the class warfare thing ticks me off - not so much because it is based on untruth - but that its perpetrators know it to be untrue. It works because for every one voter who knows it's crap, there are ten voters who don't - and you win elections with votes, not facts.

 

[Bann]

Want to talk issues? Let's go:
Disabilities
First, provide Americans with disabilities with the educational opportunities they need to succeed.
Like what? Don't disabled people already have a right to education?

Yes, they do - it's called the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, which is part of the Rehabilitation Act. I guess Obama hasn't heard about that. Pesky laws! Too many of them to remember!

And the Federal Law isn't the problem. It's the way the STATES implement the federal law that can be the problem. Even the way individual school districts implement the state laws which can be the problem. OR break it down even further - it can be within school districts - how individual school adminstrations and/or teachers implement the laws which can be the problem for individuals with disabilities getting the educational opportunities they need to succeed.

I've had the experience of seeing that my son gets the educational opportunities he needs in 3 states and they've all been very different.

Once more, Barack talks a lot and says nothing. No real plan, or even thinking about a plan, to make his dreams come true. He's just content to dream and talk about change.

Right! (See signature below)

 

[Bann]

From Poverty again:

So Barack raises the minimum wage, businesses raise prices to accommodate the increased payroll expense, and poor people STILL can't afford anything.

Brilliant.

Besides, as we established last time we had a thread about this, there is almost no one who supports a family and makes minimum wage. Most minimum wage jobs are fast food and retail jobs that high school kids get.

Right!

 

[Bann]

Maybe he can appoint Rev Wright for that

Good one!!

 

[Bann]

Many immigrants support a family on minimum wage.

Maybe it's because they're not educated enough for higher paying jobs. The minimum wage was not designed for people to be able to support families. It's called "minimum" for a reason.

 

[camily]

Maybe it's because they're not educated enough for higher paying jobs. The minimum wage was not designed for people to be able to support families. It's called "minimum" for a reason.

True, which is why they come to America. Land of opportunity right? I know for a fact that they are paid less than "American" workers because they will do it for less. As soon as they get to the point of getting a raise, they are fired and the company hires a new employee and starts them at a lower wage. Seen it done over and over. They know their job well, and could move up the ladder, but why should a company do that when they have an endless number of immigrants behind them willing to do it for less?

 

[Bann]

True, which is why they come to America. Land of opportunity right? I know for a fact that they are paid less than "American" workers because they will do it for less. As soon as they get to the point of getting a raise, they are fired and the company hires a new employee and starts them at a lower wage. Seen it done over and over. They know their job well, and could move up the ladder, but why should a company do that when they have an endless number of immigrants behind them willing to do it for less?

Where have you seen this? Employers generally don't just fire and re-hire since it's expensive to do it. Plus, if workers gain more experience, then it seems like they could go on to bigger & better jobs elsewhere.

Just because a person will do a job for less than American workers, doesn't mean we should raise up the minimum wage so they can raise a family or send money out of the country.

 

[kom526]

For those who think we can tax ourselves back to prosperity...
The Laffer Curve: Past, Present, and Future

 

[vraiblonde]

why should a company do that when they have an endless number of immigrants behind them willing to do it for less?

Ah. Now we come full circle.