Bill Would Put Serial Numbers on Bullets

[ylexot]

I wonder why it failed? Doesn't each gun leave a unique mark like a fingerprint? I don't know enough about ballistics to go on anymore, that's why I'm asking.

Yes, a gun will leave unique marks on the casing. However, the "fingerprint" can easily be altered. If you think it's easy to change a semi-auto into full (as you mentioned in the other gun thread), changing the fingerprint would be cake. Also, the "fingerprint" changes naturally with time. Fire a couple hundred rounds through the gun (some people shoot hundreds per month) and the action of the gun will deform the parts that cause the "fingerprint". Thus, they are useless as the system is set up. Bullet and casing fingerprinting can be useful in linking crimes together or linking crimes to a gun afterwards (assuming the gun is not modified after the crime), but having the database with casings from the manufacturer is a waste of time, money, and effort.

 

[ylexot]

Maryland has a requirement for an extra and useless internal lock on handguns. Many of the best quality manufacturers simply quit selling in Maryland.

I have first-hand knowledge of how something like that turns into a defacto ban. A couple years ago I decided to buy a handgun as an industrial paper punch Anyway, I decided I wanted to get a Beretta (I always liked them when I rented at the range). I went shopping and found out about this stupid law and the "ballistic fingerprinting" law (I need two locks on my gun?!?! ). There were 5 guns made that have internal gun locks. All other manufacturers stopped selling in MD. Also, manufacturers only do the ballistic fingerprinting on a small percentage of the guns they make (it takes time, effort, and money). I did find the gun I wanted, but the price was waaaay up there (much higher than what it should cost). I could get around the laws by buying a used gun, but because of the law, used Berettas were a hot item and even the price of a used one was astronomical...if you could find one (price...another way to keep people from buying). I ended up getting the gun I wanted from out-of-state, slightly used, and had it shipped through a gun dealer (that's the legal method). Wait for background check....several months after starting to look for a gun...success!

That experience made me much more aware of gun issues and the FUBAR laws in MD...and got the NRA a new life member.

 

[2ndAmendment]

It would be hilarious if ammo manufacturers pull a "Barrett" and refuse to sell ammo in Kali, including to the cops and the Feds.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Yes, a gun will leave unique marks on the casing. However, the "fingerprint" can easily be altered. If you think it's easy to change a semi-auto into full (as you mentioned in the other gun thread), changing the fingerprint would be cake. Also, the "fingerprint" changes naturally with time. Fire a couple hundred rounds through the gun (some people shoot hundreds per month) and the action of the gun will deform the parts that cause the "fingerprint". Thus, they are useless as the system is set up. Bullet and casing fingerprinting can be useful in linking crimes together or linking crimes to a gun afterwards (assuming the gun is not modified after the crime), but having the database with casings from the manufacturer is a waste of time, money, and effort.

Actually it takes far less than a hundred rounds. They have found that the case "fingerprint" changes with as little as two or three rounds and there is no way of preventing it.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Actually, that hideous program helped solve a whopping 1 crime. Happened about a month ago.

That was in New York, I believe, and their program had been in effect for, I think, two years longer.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...and got the NRA a new life member.

Every gun owner should be a member of the NRA even if they don't agree with everything the NRA says or does. Here is good reason. It is old, but it still applies.

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td colspan="11" align="center">If you don't vote like a gun owner, YOU SUCK!

</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="5" rowspan="2">
Editor's Note: While we're certain that the sentiments expressed in this editorial don't apply to regular Blue Press readers, we're pretty confident that most of you know gun owners to whom these sentiments DO apply -- if so, please pass this article on. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herein are solely those of the author, although ours are similar.

By Peter Caroline

According to most estimates, there are between 75 and 80 million adult gun owners in the United States. That's more people than voted in the last presidential election. So why is it, when there are so many gun owners, that we are not the DOMINANT voting bloc in this country? Because most of that 75-80 million are stupid, lazy, hypocritical barfbags. Well, I'd like to say something to that group.

Sure, you drive around in a pickup truck with a gunrack and some hairy-chested bumper stickers, and you talk big at the gun shop or the Legion Hall. But will you shell out 35 bucks and join the NRA? Oh, you don't agree with the NRA's stance on this or that, or the NRA is too soft on something or too unyielding on something else? Or maybe long ago the NRA didn't send you your free cap or bullet key ring on time. Well, you know what? That's a dumb cop-out and you're an #######. Whether you like it or not, the NRA is the only...I repeat ONLY, effective representation you have in the cesspool of Washington politics. Even the NRA's worst enemies -- YOUR worst enemies if you have the capacity to think about it -- agree that it's one of the most powerful lobbying forces on Capitol Hill. That means no one else fights your battles for you better, and if you don't understand that simple fact, you're too dumb to exist!</td> <td>
</td> <td colspan="5" align="center">download a text copy of this article
http://dillonprecision.com/vote.gif</td> </tr> <tr> <td>
</td> <td colspan="5" valign="top">Then there's my old home state of Massachusetts. Over one million Massachusetts gun owners must be really proud to claim Teddy Kennedy as their senator. And John Kerry, the Kennedy clone, is no better. The entire Massachusetts congressional delegation, both gay and straight, is anti-gun. And you Bay State gun owners are the dildoes that put them in office! Because you sat on your fat asses, you've got Chapter 180 -- aptly named because it turns your gun rights around 180 degrees -- and you've got an attorney general who wants to be governor and thinks every handgun is a faulty consumer product. Once again, Massachusetts gun owners, where were you on Election Day?</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top">
OK, you don't give a damn about the NRA but you still want to keep your guns. So why, in the name of all that is holy, do you vote for "gun-ban" candidates? Oh, you don't? So who does? Maybe it's all those other people who were voting while you were sucking a brewski and watching the game on TV. Or maybe you're a good union guy, and the union votes Democrat.</td> <td>
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</td> <td colspan="3" id="inset1" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffcc" valign="middle">If you don't vote in the next election, your enemies will elect a president who will be able to name three or four new Supreme Court Justices</td> <td>
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Look at every state with asinine, repressive gun laws and a preponderance of anti-gun politicians -- California, New Jersey, Connecticut, Maryland...to cite several horrible examples -- and you will find enough gun owners to form an unbeatable voting bloc, IF they would get their thumbs out of their butts and vote, for a change. Jeez, what a concept!</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="5" valign="top">
Some years ago, Mario Cuomo, a dedicated anti-gunner who happened to be governor of New York, described gun owners in a most uncomplimentary fashion. But the most damning thing he said about gun owners is that they don't vote, and therefore should not be considered as a factor in any election. How about that? Mario Cuomo is a liberal Democrat and, as such, is wrong about most everything, but he's absolutely right about you. And I can prove it. If you non-voting gun owners in New York State did get off your asses and vote like gun owners, obscenities like Mario Cuomo couldn't even be elected as dog catcher. The same goes for Charles Schumer; he wasn't bad enough as a congressman from Brooklyn; you dumb schmucks had to let him become a senator! What's next...Hillary?</td> <td>
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We all know the excuses: I'm too busy, my vote doesn't count, they're all crooks and it doesn't make any difference, I gave $5 to Quail Unlimited so I don't need to vote, yadda, yadda, yadda. Well, here's the bottom line...your vote does not count if you don't use it. If you don't vote, then effectively you are on the same side as Rosie (I'm-not-a-hypocrite) O'Donnell, Sarah Brady, Bill and Hillary, Al Gore, Teddy Kennedy, Charles Schumer and every other low-life bottom feeder who knows what's best for you. If you don't vote like a gun owner, you are a butt-boy for the anti-gunners, and you bend over forward to please them.

Think about it. 75-80 million gun owners in this country; only 3.6 million NRA members, and who knows how many active pro-gun-voting gun owners. You can argue all you want about your inalienable rights. Rights are like body parts; they only work if you exercise them. And yours are looking pretty flaccid right now. If you don't vote in the next election, your enemies will elect a president who will be able to name three or four new Supreme Court justices. Which means that by the 2004 election, you will have no guns. And shortly after that, you will have no vote and no rights. And you know what? If you let that happen, it will be exactly what you deserve!</td></tr></tbody> </table>

 

[Tonio]

What are the pros and cons of Virginia's Project Exile? Is it working? Tony O'Donnell has tried in the past to push a similar initiative here.

 

[2ndAmendment]

What are the pros and cons of Virginia's Project Exile? Is it working? Tony O'Donnell has tried in the past to push a similar initiative here.

From what I have read, it is working. As I understand it, it puts heavier penalties on those that come into an area to do a crime. Come from Maryland or D.C. to Virginia to do a crime and get stiffer penalties. Why Maryland law makers would be against that is beyond me.

 

[Bruzilla]

What I'm wondering is how a laser engraved/etched number is going to hold up after travelling through a barrel? I'm sure during testing you can align it just so, and have the entire number survive, but in actual application I don't see how a serial number would make it down the barrel intact.

Also, Federal law allows the sale of ammunition between states. Ammo is not restricted as firearms are, and you need only provide a copy of a valid state drivers licenese to get ammo through the mail. CA will either need to ban the interstate sale of ammunition or try to force all ammunition made in the US to have the serial number.

Oooops,,, most ammunition that's fired in the US isn't made in the US. The biggest seller of ammo in the US is Wolf, and that's made in Russia. I can just imagine Barbara Boxer telling the Russians how they're to do business.

 

[Sharon]

What I'm wondering is how a laser engraved/etched number is going to hold up after travelling through a barrel? I'm sure during testing you can align it just so, and have the entire number survive, but in actual application I don't see how a serial number would make it down the barrel intact.

I'm gonna take a wild guess and suggest that it would be engraved on the underside (bottom) where the bullet is seated in the casing; as it is where the least amount of expansion upon impact would be.

As an aside; reloaders would be able to etch off the engraving if they wished, making the new bill even more laughable.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I'm gonna take a wild guess and suggest that it would be engraved on the underside (bottom) where the bullet is seated in the casing; as it is where the least amount of expansion upon impact would be.

As an aside; reloaders would be able to etch off the engraving if they wished, making the new bill even more laughable.

Even that would not work well on pure lead bullets. Micro laser engraving would melt.

This whole bill falls in the category of the one a politician proposed to find a bucket that kids could not drown in. The politician suggested that the bucket not be able to hold fluids. Now why would I want a bucket that could not hold fluids? Sure would give new meaning to washing your car.

 

[Tonio]

This whole bill falls in the category of the one a politician proposed to find a bucket that kids could not drown in. The politician suggested that the bucket not be able to hold fluids. Now why would I want a bucket that could not hold fluids? Sure would give new meaning to washing your car.

I think of that as the "for God's sake let's do something" school of legislating.

 

[Sharon]

Even that would not work well on pure lead bullets. Micro laser engraving would melt.

Gee, I wonder if those legislators though of that too.




Maybe they have a super-sonic decoder ring that signals them upon impact, sort of like the flame wars that alert us on somd.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Gee, I wonder if those legislators though of that too. ...

I have come to the belief that many legislators do not think. They react without thinking. Examples: Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Ted Kennedy.

 

[vraiblonde]

I think of that as the "for God's sake let's do something" school of legislating.

Pretty much. And they're betting that the general public is too ignorant to realize it.

 

[Bruzilla]

Do you know what the ultimate irony of this whole discussion is? They want to have these numbers engraved to help them apprehend criminals who use guns during the commission of a crime, yet they already know who the criminals are who are most likely to use a gun to commit a crime. If they would just use a government bullet to shoot these dorks then we wouldn't have to worry about tracking bullets.

 

[Larry Gude]

Au contraire me fire eating amigo...

I have come to the belief that many legislators do not think. They react without thinking. Examples: Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Ted Kennedy.

I would argue, strenuously, that they very much know how to think.

Ted Kennedy has a constituency; the modern left. (You guessed Massachusetts?). The folks in California who come up with ideas to solve problems that don't work have constituents as well, the people Tonio mentioned; the 'Do SOMETHING' crowd. Even John McCain has constituents; the media.

If we'll all notice, one of the primary features of modern debate is that the candidates are not allowed to ask one another questions, let alone follow ups. Talk shows, media interviews etc. do NOT follow logic trails or even the normal path of a conversation. Tim Russert et all try myriad ways to pare a question in order to get what THEY are after but it is always some variation on a percieved major talking point.

On a national level politicians are people who best can set aside any personal opinion at all and follow an agenda. They constantly have to think and avoid saying anything that will get them in trouble with their true constituents, whomever that may be.

Giving any ground is seen as weakness and is not the done thing.

If stating serial numbers are going to help catch killers sounds good to ones supporters, right or wrong, it becomes an issue. If the real agenda is to frighten away manufacturers and to dampen public desires through the pocket book, then that is further evidence they are REALLY thinking.

It's not easy to sit there publicly like a moron and pretend that a friggin serial number on a bullet has jack schit to do with reducing or solving a drug related murder AND plot the further demise of individual rights AND wipe out an industry WHILE thwarting the Constitution so that all your good works don't go to waste.

 

[rraley]

Larry makes excellent points...cheers to ya.

The media has failed in its role of pushing politicians to defend their points. Hell, the media has failed in its role to even discuss those points. All that they care about is "who is winning," or "whose message is reaching this demographic." Not until we get rid of that sort of crap, all that will be spread in the media is a bunch of general talking points.

Now, I think that Barbara Boxer and Ted Kennedy are pretty out in left field of the party, but I disagree with the characterization of Feinstein as a member of their ilk. She voted for Bush's tax cut and her ADA ratings are more towards the moderate range for Democrats than liberal (about 75-80).

As for this serial number on ammo, it's crap...won't solve crimes; neither will gun registration.

 

[ylexot]

The media has failed in its role of pushing politicians to defend their points. Hell, the media has failed in its role to even discuss those points. All that they care about is "who is winning," or "whose message is reaching this demographic." Not until we get rid of that sort of crap, all that will be spread in the media is a bunch of general talking points.

The media really needs to look at arguments on both sides (which are spun like a top) and point out innacuracies, falsifications, stretches of the truth, etc. to give the people the unspun truth. Right now they just regurgitate.

 

[Tonio]

As for this serial number on ammo, it's crap...won't solve crimes; neither will gun registration.

I agree. Here's one reason why I believe these feel-good measurers won't do anything--think about how many gun deaths are the result of suicides, family arguments, accidents, road rage, and so forth. Last time I checked, those kinds of causes made up a high percentage of gun deaths. Apparently, you're more likely to be shot by someone you know than by a "career criminal." Gun registration wouldn't do much to prevent those deaths, if anything.