Bush holds veto pen over stem cell bill

[sugarmama]

I get it, I just think it's stupid.

 

[Kerad]

I COMPLETELY agree with you Kerad! I just don't get why everyone else doesn't understand that/? It's so simple to m e.

I can see how some don't see it the way we do. The ones who truly feel that the instant a sperm crosses the goaline of the egg...BAM!..now it's a human being. Appearantly...whether this takes place inside the womb with a chance of the natural process continuing, or in a petri dish is of little difference. For these individuals...I understand the objection, and don't begrudge them their opinion.

I however...and many others...do not see it the same way. That's okay.

In the not too distant future, federal dollars will fund stem cell research in some way. It may be reintroduced after the November elections..after some of the "nay" voters have lost their seat. It may be after the 2008 elections, when either a Democrat, or a Rebublican who is for the research is elected. Either way..it will happen. This veto just delays the inevitible.

 

[sugarmama]

You JUST said that you wouldn't throw your values and principles away when it becomes convenient to do so.
Thank you very much--I just caught Vrai flip-flopping.
So, when it becomes convenient to save your own child, you'd suddently support it and do it?

Well? Vrai?

 

[Larry Gude]

I have no idea...

Are you saying that fingernails and afterbirths taste good?


I'm not morally against eating a steaming pile of stem cells - but much like eating fingernails or placentas it's pretty effing gross.

...how they taste. What interests me is the drive to equate human stem cells with any other human cell in an effort to make it sound like where stem cell research will naturally go is no different than trying to come up with just another cold remedy or hair color.

 

[vraiblonde]

You JUST said that you wouldn't throw your values and principles away when it becomes convenient to do so.
Thank you very much--I just caught Vrai flip-flopping.

Uh, not really. I said if it were some normal everyday practice that nobody thought a thing about. If that were the cases, chances are I wouldn't even know where the cells came from so values and principles wouldn't even come into play.

Then I thought about it and realized that I probably wouldn't do it regardless.

So sorry - you lose your little point.

 

[Larry Gude]

As I understand it...

Then I agree to disagree. To you it's a human. To me, it is a human stem cell. A drop of my blood contains human cells...that does not make it a human.

...a drop of your blood contains no human stem cells, correct? Help me get it right so we have common ground on which to debate this issue.

As for me, I'm a Republican. I have no blood.

 

[cattitude]

I have used some sort of placenta shampoo and it made my hair really nice.

 

[Larry Gude]

Apparently...

Now THAT is crazy talk.

...you've never watched someone used as a lab rat so that, maybe, jsut maybe, it would save their kids lives some day. And then die anyway, miserable, slow and torn, so some doctor can...practice.

 

[Larry Gude]

Hold up a moment...

It's not that hard--if your failing organs (or whatever) are failing due to a DISEASE and not OLD AGE, then they would be eligible for stem cell therapy.

...do you see what you are saying?

Emphazema. Congestive heart failure. Liver failure. On and on. Not to many old people just nod off in perfect health.

 

[vraiblonde]

In the not too distant future, federal dollars will fund stem cell research in some way.

You're right, if it doesn't already. What we're talking about is embryonic stem cell research, which is what Bush vetoed today.

You can get stem cells from adults, placenta and umbilical cords. There is no need to get it from embryos.

 

[cattitude]

...you've never watched someone used as a lab rat so that, maybe, jsut maybe, it would save their kids lives some day. And then die anyway, miserable, slow and torn, so some doctor can...practice.

I really don't want to get into this discuss too deeply..but ..aren't we all really just lab rats anyway? Look at cancer treatment..doctors don't know if the chemo and radiation, etc. work. Let's try this...well, not much hope..lets try this. Most people agree because they want to live.

 

[Toxick]

What interests me is the drive to equate human stem cells with any other human cell in an effort to make it sound like where stem cell research will naturally go is no different than trying to come up with just another cold remedy or hair color.

Well, I hope you didn't get that from me.

While I don't believe that embryonic stem cells are human beings, I have never denied their importance nor the significance of their potential to become something more than the sum of its parts.

The potential is definitely there for the research to get extremely ugly.

But there is also the potential for incredibly great things to happen.






You can't make an omelette without killing some people.

 

[Larry Gude]

Why is that...

Larry, that's retarded and you know it. If eating the stem cells at the stem cell restaurant would SAVE LIVES, then sure, open up the restaurant.

...retarded?

And if it is retarded, why do you then support the idea?

 

[sugarmama]

...you've never watched someone used as a lab rat so that, maybe, jsut maybe, it would save their kids lives some day. And then die anyway, miserable, slow and torn, so some doctor can...practice.

Have you?
The point is that it COULD save lives one day. And what if you didn't do anything to try to save that kid's life? You'd probably always wonder if stem cell treatment could have saved them. No pain, no gain.
I don't get the whole "doctor's just practicing" thing. Are you a pessimist? Don't you see the possibilities? Do you expect doctor's to know EVERYTHING and ALWAYS get everything right? If they didn't "practice" or experiment with different treatment/drugs, I'm pretty sure you'd be biatching about them not doing enough to save lives.

 

[sugarmama]

I really don't want to get into this discuss too deeply..but ..aren't we all really just lab rats anyway? Look at cancer treatment..doctors don't know if the chemo and radiation, etc. work. Let's try this...well, not much hope..lets try this. Most people agree because they want to live.

And this is the most important part. Why wouldn't ANYONE do whatever it took to save their lives, if there was ANY hope at all.

 

[sugarmama]

...do you see what you are saying?

Emphazema. Congestive heart failure. Liver failure. On and on. Not to many old people just nod off in perfect health.

Yes, you are right there.

 

[Kerad]

...a drop of your blood contains no human stem cells, correct? Help me get it right so we have common ground on which to debate this issue.

As for me, I'm a Republican. I have no blood.

Actually, I can't confirm or deny that...I honestly don't know. I can see if I can find out...just not now, as I'm getting ready to leave for the night.

If it doesn't contain stem cells...we all know it does contain other types of human cells.

Irregardless, any part of my body which does contain adult human stem cells...is not , by iteslf, a human being.

And yes...as a Republican you certainly do have blood. It's just very cold and black.

More later! I'm off to end the existence of some some cold beer....and by extension, some of my very human brain cells.

 

[Larry Gude]

I didn't get that from you...

Well, I hope you didn't get that from me.

While I don't believe that embryonic stem cells are human beings, I have never denied their importance nor the significance of their potential to become something more than the sum of its parts.

The potential is definitely there for the research to get extremely ugly.

But there is also the potential for incredibly great things to happen.


You can't make an omelette without killing some people.

...I just see some people not really thinking this through because they don't like discusions with a moral component. Precisely because of what you state, the good and bad possibilities, we MUST have a moral debate.

Just because we can does not mean we should.

Life saving medical EVIDENCE, facts, have been rejected numerous times because the research came out of concentration camps in WWII.

 

[sugarmama]

Uh, not really. I said if it were some normal everyday practice that nobody thought a thing about. If that were the cases, chances are I wouldn't even know where the cells came from so values and principles wouldn't even come into play.

Then I thought about it and realized that I probably wouldn't do it regardless.

So sorry - you lose your little point.

No, what you said was this: "If you DID know me, you'd know that I'm not a person who throws my values and principles away when it becomes convenient for me to do so. YOU may do that, but I do not."
THEN you said that you'd do it if everyone else did it.

So, I do NOT lose my little point. You do.

 

[Larry Gude]

Oh you set yourself up...

Actually, I can't confirm or deny that...I honestly don't know. I can see if I can find out...just not now, as I'm getting ready to leave for the night.

If it doesn't contain stem cells...we all know it does contain other types of human cells.

Irregardless, any part of my body which does contain adult human stem cells...is not , by iteslf, a human being.

And yes...as a Republican you certainly do have blood. It's just very cold and black.

More later! I'm off to end the existence of some some cold beer....and by extension, some of my very human brain cells.

...you're a Democrat; you have no brain.