Can Godless Atheists Have Moral Values?

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EmptyTimCup

Guest
:coffee:


Godless Moral Values: Can Godless Atheists Have Moral Values?


Moral Values do not Require Gods or Religion:
A popular claim among religious theists is that atheists have no basis for morality — that religion and gods are needed for moral values. Usually they mean their religion and god, but sometimes they seem willing to accept any religion and any god. The truth is that neither religions nor gods are necessary for morality, ethics, or values. They can exist in a godless, secular context just fine, as demonstrated by all the godless atheists who lead moral lives every day.

Love & Good Will:
Good will towards others is vital to morality for two reasons. First, genuinely moral acts must include a desire that others do well — it's not morality to grudgingly help someone you wish would curl up and die. It's also not morality to help someone due to inducements like threats or rewards. Second, an attitude of good will can encourage moral behavior without needing to be prodded and pushed. Good will thus functions as both a context and driving force behind moral behavior.

Reason:
Some may not immediately recognize the importance of reason for morality, but it's arguably indispensable. Unless morality is simply obedience to memorized rules or flipping a coin, we have to be able to think clearly and coherently about our moral choices. We have to adequately reason our way through the various options and consequences in order to arrive at any decent conclusion. Without reason, then, we cannot hope to have a moral system or to behave morally.

Compassion & Empathy:

Most people realize that empathy plays an important role when it comes to morality, but just how important it is may not be as well understood as it should be. Treating others with dignity does not require orders from any gods, but it does require that we be able to conceptualize how our actions affect others. This, in turn, requires an ability to empathize with others — an ability to be able to imagine what it's like to be them, even if only briefly.

Personal Autonomy:
Without personal autonomy, morality is not possible. If we are simply robots following orders, then our actions can only be described as obedient or disobedient; mere obedience, however, cannot be morality. We need the ability to choose what to do and to choose the moral action. Autonomy is also important because we are not treating others morally if we prevent them from enjoying the same level of autonomy which we require for ourselves.

Pleasure:
In Western religions, at least, pleasure and morality are often diametrically opposed. This opposition is not necessary in secular, godless morality — on the contrary, seeking to generally increase the ability of people to experience pleasure is often important in godless morality. This is because without any belief in an afterlife, it follows that this life is all we have and so we must make the most of it while we can. If we can't enjoy being alive, what's the point of living?

Justice & Mercy:
Justice means ensuring that people receive what they deserve — that a criminal receives the appropriate punishment, for example. Mercy is a countervailing principle which promotes being less harsh than one is entitled to be. Balancing the two is key for dealing with people morally. A lack of justice is wrong, but a lack of mercy can be just as wrong. None of this requires any gods for guidance; on the contrary, it's common for stories of gods to depict them as failing to find balance here.

Honesty:
Honesty is important because truth is important; truth is important because an inaccurate picture of reality cannot reliably help us to survive and understand. We need accurate information about what is going on and a reliable method for evaluating that information if we are to achieve anything. False information will hinder or ruin us. There can be no morality without honesty, but there can be honesty without gods. If there are no gods, then dismissing them is the only honest thing to do.

Altruism:
Some deny that altruism even exists, but whatever label we give it, the act of sacrificing something for the sake of others is common to all cultures and all social species. You don't need gods or religion to tell you that if you value others, sometimes what they need must take precedence over what you need (or just think you need). A society without self-sacrifice would be a society without love, justice, mercy, empathy, or compassion.

Moral Values Without Gods or Religion:
I can almost hear religious believers asking "What's the basis for being moral in the first place? What reason is there to care about behaving morally at all?" Some believers imagine themselves clever for asking this, certain that it cannot be answered. It's only the cleverness of a teenage solipsist who thinks he has stumbled on a way to refute every argument or belief by adopting extreme skepticism.

The problem with this question is that it presumes that morality is something that can be separated from human society and consciousness and independently grounded, justified, or explained. It's like removing a person's liver and demanding an explanation for why it — and it alone — exists while ignoring the body they've left bleeding out on the ground.

Morality is as integral to human society as a person's major organs are integral to the human body: although the functions of each can be discussed independently, explanations for each can only occur in the context of the entire system. Religious believers who see morality exclusively in terms of their god and religion are as unable to recognize this as someone who imagines that humans acquire a liver through a process other than through the natural growth that lies behind every other organ.

So how do we answer the above question in the context of human society? First, there are two questions here: why behave morally in some particular set of circumstances, and why behave morally in general, even if not in every case? Second, religious morality which is ultimately based on the commands of a god cannot answer these questions because "God says so" and "You'll go to hell otherwise" don't work.

There is insufficient space here for a detailed discussion, but the simplest explanation for morality in human society is the fact that human social groups need predictable rules and behavior to function. As social animals, we can no more exist without morality than we can without our livers. Everything else is just details.


Without some "Moral" compass based on something bigger than self, the individual is subject only to which way the wind is blowing .....
 

Toxick

Splat
Oohh.. Let me answer...

No, they can't. To a filthy heathen, morals are arbitrary and pointless rules.

It all boils down to accountability. If there is no God, there is no moral accountability.




This is why I believe that all atheists should be herded up like lame mules, and shot.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
No, they can't. To a filthy heathen, morals are arbitrary and pointless rules.

It all boils down to accountability. If there is no God, there is no moral accountability.




This is why I believe that all atheists should be herded up like lame mules, and shot.
That would be the moral thing to do! :killingme
 

Dondi

Dondi
God created man to operate in a certain way. One of those is being kind and loving toward our neighbor, even our enemy. So one who is an athiest can have morals that reflect that operation, albeit with different motives that serving the living God. Truth is, it feels good to help someone in need, no matter what kind of background you have. It feels good to be nice to someone. It is that common grace and behavior that was intended by God that we should live in harmony and treat each other right.

So sure, athiests can have morality. They just don't acknowledge the seed from which that morality comes from. God rains that common grace on believer and non-believer alike. The difference is, and I speak from personal experience, that we can draw more of that ability to love when we have a relationship with God.
 

tommyjones

New Member
God created man to operate in a certain way. One of those is being kind and loving toward our neighbor, even our enemy. So one who is an athiest can have morals that reflect that operation, albeit with different motives that serving the living God. Truth is, it feels good to help someone in need, no matter what kind of background you have. It feels good to be nice to someone. It is that common grace and behavior that was intended by God that we should live in harmony and treat each other right.

So sure, athiests can have morality. They just don't acknowledge the seed from which that morality comes from. God rains that common grace on believer and non-believer alike. The difference is, and I speak from personal experience, that we can draw more of that ability to love when we have a relationship with God.

you guys are missing the boat, its the chicken and the egg. People invented religion, therefore morals were given to religion by people, not the other way around. Religion might have given early law, but that stemmed from the morals already present in the people who created religion.
 

Dondi

Dondi
you guys are missing the boat, its the chicken and the egg. People invented religion, therefore morals were given to religion by people, not the other way around. Religion might have given early law, but that stemmed from the morals already present in the people who created religion.

Chicken or egg? I didn't say religion created man, I said God created man. God came first.
 
I'm an agnostic, but I dare you to meet my moral and ethical values. And if it were ever proven to me that God did truly not exist, that wouldn't change who I am, I would still be the same ethical and moral person. Morals and ethics have nothing to do with believing or not believing in God. And I've met some "religious" people that had the values and morals of a snake.
 

Toxick

Splat
Chicken or egg? I didn't say religion created man, I said God created man. God came first.



Don't.





Just don't.




You might as well do something more productive and less painful with your time... Like pulling out your fingernails by the root.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
if you believe religion, which is a man made entity
To the religious person, it matters not whether you believe it happened, it just happened.

To the non-religious person, it matters not whether it happened, it's believed it didn't happen.

And, you don't have to believe in "religion" to believe in a God that created the heavens and the earth. If that were true, we'd all be the same religion.
 
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Marie

New Member
:coffee:
Without some "Moral" compass based on something bigger than self, the individual is subject only to which way the wind is blowing .....

God has placed his moral law the (10 commandments) on all our hearts. We all have a concious that tells us when ever we break one.
Then there are two types of people, one that responds to their guilt and the other who choose to ignore it as they become less sensitive to it.

Christians and non-Christians alike our guided by their concious.
So is the real question that if a non-christian tries to obey the moral laws, than why wont they go one step further and surrender their self will to that same God.

Even in our secular class in college, Philosophy in Law it was deam that mans laws orignate from an inate sense of right and wrong that everyone has and that the foundation of law was based on the 10 commandments.
 

tommyjones

New Member
God has placed his moral law the (10 commandments) on all our hearts. We all have a concious that tells us when ever we break one.
Then there are two types of people, one that responds to their guilt and the other who choose to ignore it as they become less sensitive to it.

Christians and non-Christians alike our guided by their concious.
So is the real question that if a non-christian tries to obey the moral laws, than why wont they go one step further and surrender their self will to that same God.

Even in our secular class in college, Philosophy in Law it was deam that mans laws orignate from an inate sense of right and wrong that everyone has and that the foundation of law was based on the 10 commandments.

i think you missunderstood something there. in philosophy the 10 commandments, which may be the foundation of law(not conceeding, just making a point), are based on the inate sense of right and wrong, not the other way around.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
i think you missunderstood something there. in philosophy the 10 commandments, which may be the foundation of law(not conceeding, just making a point), are based on the inate sense of right and wrong, not the other way around.
I think YOU misunderstood.

The 10 commandments basis is different depending on your belief system. If you believe in God, their basis is the word of God. If you are an atheist, their basis is best guess of man. Each person decides that for themselves. There is no provable truth either way. It's all based on your individual faith, whether that's in God and a meaning of life, or lack of God, and lack of meaning in life beyond whatever you choose it to be for your particular life.
 

Xaquin44

New Member
I think YOU misunderstood.

The 10 commandments basis is different depending on your belief system. If you believe in God, their basis is the word of God. If you are an atheist, their basis is best guess of man. Each person decides that for themselves. There is no provable truth either way. It's all based on your individual faith, whether that's in God and a meaning of life, or lack of God, and lack of meaning in life beyond whatever you choose it to be for your particular life.

I'm pretty sure 90% of the 10 commandments were either already illegal or already frowned upon long before moses claimed to have talked to a burning shrubbery.
 

Roughidle

New Member
Godless Atheist? Is there any other kind? :shrug:
However, as far as morals go, I haven't heard of any atheists diddlin' young choir boys yet.:coffee:
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure 90% of the 10 commandments were either already illegal or already frowned upon long before moses claimed to have talked to a burning shrubbery.
That's certainly one man's opinion. No one's trying to take that from you.
 

Xaquin44

New Member
That's certainly one man's opinion. No one's trying to take that from you.

opinion?

4 of the 10 were illegal before god was ever thought of, and most of the rest were either supported or frowned upon (depending on which).

Hell, you can see texts that predate the bible (or even stone tablets if that's your thing) outlining theft, murder, and adultry as illegal.

christians don't have a monopoly on morals.
 

Xaquin44

New Member
Ever read The Code of Hammurabi?

written almost 2k years before christ was someones wildest dream.


I think you'll find a lot of similarities.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
opinion?

4 of the 10 were illegal before god was ever thought of, and most of the rest were either supported or frowned upon (depending on which).

Hell, you can see texts that predate the bible (or even stone tablets if that's your thing) outlining theft, murder, and adultry as illegal.

christians don't have a monopoly on morals.
I didn't claim that Christians have a monopoly on morals. And, I think God predated the tablets that predated the Bible. And, you don't, (sort of). And, we each have the rights to our opinions. 4 of 10 is 50% less than 9 of 10, and it still boils down to opinion, yes.
 
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