Circus - No fun for animals

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Cariblue,

What do you mean by around here?  I know there is a camp up around Crownsville that caters to those of free spirit.  If you would like I can get you the data and send it via messenger.  For a more private scene, a boat and some of the shorelines have beaches were you can get away with it a little, just got to be careful and don't do it anywhere on this side of the bay from Point No Point to Cedar Point as there are some high power cameras along the coast.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
vraiblonde,

Just go for the higher number, you already post under two names, three would make me think you have a multiple personality disorder.  I wish the number of posts from the old forum carried over, some of us would be over 2,000.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Cariblue,

Watch that old sun, as it will turn velvety skin into that of a lizard.  But then you could always work at the CIRCUS.  :roflmao:

Seriously, I just recent had some melanoma removed from my back so be careful.  If you are still interested you need to find someone that has a nice chunk of property that you can borrow.  
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Yeah, but my other screen name doesn't count because I hardly ever post under it.  I'd be sorry to give up Vraiblonde - then how would I know when I'm winning an argument?  ("You MUST be blonde...") :lol:
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Vraiblonde,

Regardless of the name you use we would KNOW that you are blonde.
 

BL

Member
Jimmy,

Your point is taken.  I have read some of your previous post and know were you stand.  I was attacking the thought processes of the extreme left.  You can call it stereotyping or whatever you want.  I don’t care.  Like I said before if the truth hurts these people maybe they should reconsider their position.  Did they ever take in consideration that the circus folk have to make money to put food on the table for their families, or is it,  “just screw them too”.    
 

jimmy

Drunkard
I don't think the question here is about the circus making money or not.  Frankly, if someone is making money off of something that is wrong, even if they are putting food on the table, it's wrong and should be stopped. I mean, a drug dealer makes money but what he's doing is wrong. It's also illegal but I think that's the direction that people like AL are trying to take the circus so don't tell me that it's not the same. My arugement against what AL is trying to do, however, is that we're just supposed to take her word and carny-mark's word that all this abuse is going on, everyone knows it, and no one is doing anything about it. I say, invesitgate it to be sure, and if they find abuse, then I don't care how many starving clown's children there are. It's wrong to abuse an animal. But until that is proven to be the case, boycotting the circus isn't the answer.
 

BL

Member
BL on 8:44 am on April 24, 2002[br]Jimmy,

The facts are these:  1)  There was never any facts presented on this topic that convinced me, or it appears anyone else that these animals are being abused.  2)  Instead of trying to boycott the circus why doesn’t AL or Mark come up with some evidence and a plan and try and stop the abuse instead of bitching about it on here.  Obviously they have not found any confirmation about the abuse or they would have already done this and we would not be talking about it anymore.  3)  No one on this thread condones animals being abused!


Hey jimmy,
Your last post sounds familiar
 

mark

Member
Ken et al…

Let me start of my saying, I am not going to get into this verbal bashing anymore, this is about the circus and the abuse of animals, so I have tried to present some of the facts… please take some time to read them and then you can make up your own mind whether or not you think that circuses are good places for animals to be, and whether or not you want to support that…

Animals used in circuses live a dismal life of domination, confinement, and violent training. It is standard practice to beat, shock, and whip them to make them perform ridiculous tricks that they cannot comprehend.

Most elephants used by circuses were captured in the wild. Once removed from their families and natural habitat, their lives consist of little more than chains and intimidation. Baby elephants born in breeding farms are torn from their mothers, tied with ropes, and kept in isolation until they learn to fear their trainers.

Big cats, bears, and primates are forced to eat, drink, sleep, defecate, and urinate in the same cramped cages.

Elephants often suffer crippling injuries from constant chaining and performing physically difficult tricks.

The circus deprives animals of their basic needs to exercise, roam, socialize, forage, and play. Stereotypic behaviors such as swaying back and forth, head-bobbing, pacing, bar-biting, and self-mutilation are common signs of mental distress.

Using dangerous animals in performances jeopardizes public safety and often puts children at greatest risk. Since 1990, 57 people have been killed and more than 120 seriously injured by captive elephants.

Animals in circuses are hauled around the country in poorly ventilated trailers and boxcars for up to 50 weeks a year in all kinds of extreme weather conditions. Access to the basic necessities of food, water, and veterinary care is often inadequate.

A growing number of cities are restricting or banning the use of animals in entertainment.

For example…..here are just some of the cities that have outlawed animals in the circus: Pasedena CA, Stamford CN, Hollywood FL, Quincy MA, Takoma Park MD, Estes Park CO, Redmond WA and Revere MA, to name but a few

According to congressional testimony provided by former Beatty-Cole elephant keeper Tom Rider, “In White Plains, N.Y., when Pete did not perform her act properly, she was taken to the tent and laid down, and five trainers beat her with bullhooks. PETE IS NOW DEAD.”

The bullhook is a tool used to punish and control elephants. It is also called an ankus, elephant goad, or elephant hook. The handle is made of wood, metal, plastic, or fiberglass, and there is a sharp steel hook at one end. Its shape resembles a boat hook or fireplace poker. Some bullhooks have long, "shepherd’s crook" cane-style handles, allowing the trainer a firmer grip so that greater force can be exerted while pulling and yanking the hook deeper into the elephant’s flesh.

Both ends inflict damage. The trainer uses the hook to apply varying degrees of pressure to sensitive spots on the elephant’s body (see diagram), causing the elephant to move away from the source of discomfort. Holding the hooked end, the handle is swung like a baseball bat and induces substantial pain when the elephant is struck on the wrist, ankle, and other areas where there is little tissue between skin and bone.

The thickness of an elephant’s skin ranges from one inch across the back and hindquarters to paper-thin around the mouth and eyes, inside the ears, and at the anus. Their skin appears deceptively tough, but in reality it is so delicate that an elephant can feel the pain of an insect bite. A bullhook can easily inflict pain and injury on an elephant’s sensitive skin. Trainers often embed the hook in the soft tissue behind the ears, inside the ear or mouth, in and around the anus, and in tender spots under the chin and around the feet.

While performing in the ring, an elephant responds to verbal commands from a trainer carrying a bullhook and moderate pressure from the bullhook because the elephant has been conditioned through violent training sessions that refusal to obey in the ring will result in severe punishment later. Moments before entering the ring, while out of view of the public, trainers may give the elephants a few painful whacks to remind them who's boss and ensure that the elephants perform the specified tricks on command.

Because a dispirited elephant submits to a dominant trainer toting a bullhook, circuses mislead the public with spurious claims that a bullhook is only used to guide or cue an elephant. The difficult tricks that elephants are forced to perform place a great deal of stress on their muscles and joints. They are physically strenuous and no elephant would perform these grotesquely exaggerated maneuvers on command, over and over, hundreds of times a year without the constant threat of punishment. In the wild, an adult elephant would lie down in slow, gradual movements no more than once or twice per day. A typical circus act requires that they lie down and rise very quickly several times in a single show. If it were possible for an elephant to simply be "guided" to perform rapid successions of headstands, hind-leg stands, lying down, tub-sitting, crawling, and twirling, the trainer would be carrying a soft, cotton wand, not a hard, pointed object

That’s the facts……make your own mind up….
 

jlabsher

Sorry about that chief.
Wow, Mark was that stolen verbatum from PETA?  Here is stolen verbatum from Cole Brothers Circus website:

The management, staff and performers of Clyde Beatty-Cole Bros. consider our animals and their welfare central to the life of our entire traveling community.

We treat our animals with respect and kindness, adhering to strict standards for housing, feeding, watering, training, exercising, and performing with animals.  The Circus provides a safe and wholesome environment for the animals, circus personnel and their families, and the patrons who attend our performances.

Clyde Beatty-Cole Bros. Circus possesses a license to exhibit animals issued by the United States Department of Agriculture, which regulates and monitors licensees to ensure the humane treatment of performaing animals in accordance with the federal Animal Welfare Act.

We increase the body of knowledge about animals by working with them.  Furthermore, we expand public awareness and appreciation of endangered species through our performances, educational materials and outreach, and participation in captive breeding programs to preserve endangered species from extinction.  We appreciate the support of millions of Americans, who attend our performances, praise our animal care, and encourage us to continue presenting animals in the circus.

Let the facts be known.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Mark,

If you have specific evidence that this is being done why haven't the operators of this circus been legally stopped?  Obviously you don't or the fact is that they aren't breaking the current laws.

You can regurgitate all the PETA information you want (which is filled with speculation and innuendo and not much fact) but until such time as the circus is in violation of the law they have the right to conduct business in accordance with the issued permits.

What you have failed to realize is that because you see it as wrong does not make it illegal.  We are a nation that has laws and until such time as new laws are crafted you are just whistling in the wind.

As I said earlier, put up or shut up, find out if they are in violation and report them.  You might have to purchase a ticket though to get in.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
God knows I hate to agree with Mark after he was so mean but he's right.  Everything I've ever read or heard about training circus animals is described just about how Mark put it up.  That's why I don't go.

To be honest, there's really no other way to train a large animal, not to mention a predator, than to establish dominance over it.  And typically dominance is established through discomfort, because that's all the animal really understands - comfort vs. discomfort.  It's not like a dog that is domesticated enough be uncomfortable when you yell at it - larger animals and predators need a more aggressive stimulus.

So it's unrealistic to say protest for better treatment of the animals - there's no other way to train them, really, than the methods currently used.

I meant what I said, though, about them being in just about the same (arguably better) straights at the circus as they are in the wild.  Life expectancy for animals in captivity is almost ALWAYS longer than animals in the wild.  Infants survive in greater numbers in captivity as well.  Look it up on the Internet if you don't believe me - the only sites that say animals do better in the wild are run by activists, not scientists or animal behavior experts.

And I don't want to hear about how it's not "natural" for bears to dance on their hind legs.  It's not "natural" for my cats to eat out of a bowl and have their crunchies handed to them.  Nor is it "natural" for your dog to be on the end of a leash.  And, boy, is it not "natural" for fish to swim in a bowl.

So those of you who enjoy the circus, go and have fun.  Those who don't, stay away.

Circuses are like scrapple - you'll enjoy it more if you don't see how it's made.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Vraiblonde,

Do you go to the county fair?  Ever watch the horse pulls?  Is that abuse too?
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
To jlabsher I respond:  well, what do you expect them to say?  Nobody would go to a circus that says they beat their animals to get them to perform.  How depressing.

To Ken:  there is no current law against training animals in that method.  There are laws that regulate the living conditions of the animals, but I think they may vary from state to state.  Not sure about that, would have to look it up.  I think, though, that's what AL and Mark are really shooting for - making this stuff illegal.  And I'm not sure if I'd support that - have to think about it some more.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
I was just wondering, if some get their way the local Amish will have to buy cars and tractors.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Any activity that involves taking a whip or shock prod to an animal is abusive, IMHO.  HOWEVER...we are a little higher on the food chain so there you go.  The day that horse can get <i>us</i> to pull a tractor, then they'll get some say-so.  I'm against animal testing, too, for what it's worth.  But I certainly see the need for it in many cases.  Again I say, it's like sausage...
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Vicos,

I think we are on their watch list.  To another thought, anyone notice that the PETA  complex in Virginia Beach area was built on wetlands?  How do they justify that?
 

Jameo

What?!
Just a question, say the circus is closed down because of everyone boycotting, blah, blah, blah, what happens to the animals then????

a. released back in to the wild??? How long to you think they will survive before they starve to death??

b.  released to the Zoo??  Yeah, that is a MUCH nicer place!!  NOT!!  What's the difference between a zoo and a circus? The animals are standing on their heads at the zoo, besides that?

c.  Release them to Ms. Animal Lover so she can take care of the Lions and Tigers and Bears, OH MY!!!

or

d.  They are save by some resuce group of retired circus animals???  Is there such a thing???

I think this is pretty entertaining, along with the circus!! :clap:  
 
My goodness!!  :eek:   After reading this board for the last week, I just had to join.  This is much more fun (and apparently more animal friendly) than any circus I've every been too.  
 
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