Coat Color Studies Aid Health Research, Breeding C

happyappygirl

Rocky Mountain High!!
ALL registered horses MUST be DNA tested. After passing DNA testing they are color and JEB tested.
And then you tried to argue with me about it. I fully believe that you are a color *first* breeder.

I'm sorry not being familiar with your breed, I don't know what a JEB test is.

Do they have to pass an exam to determine if they have appropriate conformation, temperament and gait to be allowed to even produce fully registered offspring in addition to DNA parentage testing?

DNA PARENTAGE testing is the MINIMUM standard Rockies have to meet in order to produce registerable offspring. They are REQUIRED to be temperament and gait tested when they reach breeding age in order to be certified to breed at all.

I went to a great deal of trouble choosing my breeding animals, and I color test so i can register my foals appropriately, and so i know silver status on foals and adults to lessen the possibility of producing an inheritied ocular disorder OR a lesser marketable color because of the limited number of foals I have. It's called having your cake and eating it too.

FYI Rockies are also still on the endangered watch list and will remain there because of the rigid standards to allow registered offspring, which i don't see changing any time soon.

Please see my reply to Devine for additional comments TYVM and have a great day. :howdy:
 
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happyappygirl

Rocky Mountain High!!
just letting you know what it looks like from an outsider checking you out..........

An outsider having NO interest or desire to learn about the breed but only the need to make judgements and post opinions fully intended to be degrading on a public forum. But hey, we all have an opinion eh? Thanks for sharing it.
 

CountryLady

luvmyponies
Yes...in fact...I said I bred for color...you gave me the eyebrow.:coffee:

That eyebrow was really more like the REALLY eyebrow. I forgot they were different. Sorry. I guess when you posted; I wasn't sure what your take was on the issue. From some of the other posts you have made on other threads, I halfway expected you to be joking. I was surprised to hear that " I breed for color" coming from you.

I have never met you in person nor have I met any of your animals. I don't pretend to pass judgment on something that I have no firsthand knowledge of.

It is good that you are breeding for color and function, and that there are reasons backing your breeding decisions. It is great that your animals have a chance to be registered with some of the mentioned registries. You have a purpose and that is very important. Personally I think registry is important, but with pedigree, registry, conformation, temperament, color, (and in the case of the Rocky Mountain Breed, GAIT), you can’t go wrong.

I agree that there are a lot of subpar breeding outfits out there with sparse knowledge of the breed they are working with. I also agree that there are a lot of good quality animals out there that are foundation bred and should have been registered, but due to poor book keeping or breeders sudden death, mismanagement of heard or many other reasons, are not registered and are sold as unregisterable. Pity! I think if all breeds were to dna type (not just for color) there would be a chance to have these animals registered and they wouldn't end up at the slaughter houses unnecessarily. And if all registries would certify their registered animals for breeding purposes, (i.e. making sure they are a good representation of the breed to be allowed to breed) that would help to rectify a lot of issues concerning unwanted horse.
:coffee:
 

CountryLady

luvmyponies
Um, no. American Cream Drafts are not a color breed. Sorry. Just like American Quarter Horses aren't all racehorses. American Cream Drafts are a specific genetic breed. If you cross an American Cream with another draft breed if that horse is cream it can be registered as Appendix but, that is only because the breed is endangered. Off spring of that appendix can only be registered if bred back to a full American Cream Draft. ALL registered horses MUST be DNA tested. After passing DNA testing they are color and JEB tested.

Cleveland Bay is just one name for the oldest horse breed in Britain. They used to have markings similar to duns with dorsal stripes and zebra stripes. As with other breeds (example height of white markings on QH legs) some color preferences have been noted. For example bright bay is more desirable than dark bay.

This same preference is seen in many breeds but it doesn't make for a color registry. Friesian's are only black. Percherons while registerable in any solid color are most desired in black with no white or a white star. There are occasional chestnut and bay percherons and percherons with blazes and socks. But, because those are not desired that horse isn't as likely to go on to show career and subsequently the breeding shed.

Shoot, I had to remove a link from here because it's not a public thread. :( But we've had plenty of discussion regarding breeding horses of color in which you asked me if I was going to keep a 1 week old horse a stallion because of his color. And then you tried to argue with me about it. I fully believe that you are a color *first* breeder.

ACDHA - American Cream Draft Horse Assoc.

The Cleveland Bay Horse Society of North America - Cleveland Bay Standard of Points
 

Chickadee1

New Member
I went to a great deal of trouble choosing my breeding animals, and I color test so i can register my foals appropriately, and so i know silver status on foals and adults to lessen the possibility of producing an inheritied ocular disorder OR a lesser marketable color because of the limited number of foals I have. It's called having your cake and eating it too.
QUOTE]


so the purpose of breeding a rockie to an appaloosa is??......are your rockies trail quality or show quality?.......isn't going to competitions with your horses a way to compare quality within the breed?.......how have your horses done in competition?
 

happyappygirl

Rocky Mountain High!!
so the purpose of breeding a rockie to an appaloosa is??......are your rockies trail quality or show quality?.......isn't going to competitions with your horses a way to compare quality within the breed?.......how have your horses done in competition?
Answer to # 1 breeding a Rocky to a with a foundation SHUFFLING pedigreed appaloosa is the same answer as the WALKALOOSA people give, gait and color. It was done once, the mare is foundation bred, carries the LP (appy) spotting gene and is a heavy sabino carrier (paint spots), but the filly doesn't have spots of any sort, she's just a beautiful peachy color, who is very, very well put together, and WILL shuffle. Did you know that foundation appy's shuffle?

Answer to # 2 is NO i do NOT show my horses because I do not sell horses to be shown. Period. I have no interest in an arena horse or that type of movement/temperament. Show rockies have to be much hotter, have more lift (in front) and are more forward just to get noticed. Who wants that in a trail horse?? 90% of the people who want these horses, want trail companions. All my pedigrees are foundation, the best in the country.

We compete in trail competitions when we can. Hondo has placed in the top 3 as has the the young one we put under saddle last year, and prior to being sold. We compete when time and distance allow. I'll be riding Hondo and two daughters will be riding geldings I've raised and put under saddle in the SMTR trail competition this month.

I breed raise and train trail companions who are quiet, good minded and smooth. Show lines tend towards more refinement, animation and lift then a trail horse needs, so i choose pedigrees which give me what i want in our stock. Larger size, quieter temperament an overall more easy going animal - like my stallion and stud colt.

The proof is in the pudding. The animals we raise and train are ridden everywhere. Local vets love them because they are the quietest horses they see in practice, even when very young, the people we ride with love them and are amazed at how quiet they are, and most importantly, the owners love them because they are the kindest most easily handled, manageable horses available.

Next year several we bred will be undersaddle/certified and none which will be for sale. I bred them specifically to be added into our breeding herd, and they will reflect the choices we've made, doing it proudly.
 
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fredsaid2

New Member
"foundation SHUFFLING pedigreed appaloosa " ???

I think the term is "peanut pusher". :killingme

Why would you want a horse who shuffles bred to a horse who has a 'move out' gait? Are you attempting to dampen down the hot-ness of the Rocky? Just wondering.
 

happyappygirl

Rocky Mountain High!!
"foundation SHUFFLING pedigreed appaloosa " ???

I think the term is "peanut pusher". :killingme

Why would you want a horse who shuffles bred to a horse who has a 'move out' gait? Are you attempting to dampen down the hot-ness of the Rocky? Just wondering.
A peanut pusher (roller) is the poll lower than the withers when moving forward. It has nothing to do with the gait the animal is in.

Shuffling is "gaited". It's a lateral movement (some people call it "pacey" when they see it) and its not allowed in the show ring (or encouraged by today's show Appy standards). ALL original Appys were shufflers, that gait is what kept the Nez Pierce Indians on their ponies back. When people started breeding them to be shown, they bred that particular gait out, by using QHs and TBs.

Foundation bred Aps still carry shuffling the gene, and can do it. A shuffle is similar to a running walk like most Walking horses do (there are racking walkers but they're in the minority-and another topic all together). They're hard to find...and EXPENSIVE.

The first Appy mare I bought in foal was 97% foundation bred, bred to an 87% foundation bred Ap stallion, and the colt she had DOES indeed shuffle as a 5 y/o gelding. I've always been interested in gaited horses, I just happen to prefer a saddle rack over a running walk or a shuffle.

We bred the Ap mare to a Rocky stallion because hubby wanted something gaited with an Appy blanket, and she's foundation bred so we knew she carried gait. She was his mare, not mine, he made that choice.

Hottness of a Rocky? :lol: Not mine.
 
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Phyxius

Zoooooooom
The movement of the "indian shuffle" is lateral not diagonal like the trot but it's a four beat gait so it's not really a pace. When the Spanish came to American they brought the horse flesh including the gaited precursors to the Paso Fino, Peruvian Paso, Mangalarga Marchador and other *spanish* gaited breeds. So, the gait was bred into the Appaloosa breed. Just like crossing any breed with a gaited breed you're likely to get a bastardized version of the gait with a possibility of getting a good gait.

(Not arguing with anyone. Just giving some more information. My first horse was an Appaloosa. And, in case it's not obvious yet I research everything.)
 

fredsaid2

New Member
The movement of the "indian shuffle" is lateral not diagonal like the trot but it's a four beat gait so it's not really a pace. When the Spanish came to American they brought the horse flesh including the gaited precursors to the Paso Fino, Peruvian Paso, Mangalarga Marchador and other *spanish* gaited breeds. So, the gait was bred into the Appaloosa breed. Just like crossing any breed with a gaited breed you're likely to get a bastardized version of the gait with a possibility of getting a good gait.

Interesting, I'd never heard of this before. Thanks for the explanation!
 

Phyxius

Zoooooooom
Interesting, I'd never heard of this before. Thanks for the explanation!

Yeah, 9.9 out of 10 people believe, correctly, that the shuffle is a fault. There are breed standards for a reason. Just like with the aqha halter horses. No 1100+ pd horse should wear 00 shoes but people are idiots.
 

Robin

New Member
Answer to # 1 breeding a Rocky to a with a foundation SHUFFLING pedigreed appaloosa is the same answer as the WALKALOOSA people give, gait and color. It was done once, the mare is foundation bred, carries the LP (appy) spotting gene and is a heavy sabino carrier (paint spots), but the filly doesn't have spots of any sort, she's just a beautiful peachy color, who is very, very well put together, and WILL shuffle. Did you know that foundation appy's shuffle?

Answer to # 2 is NO i do NOT show my horses because I do not sell horses to be shown. Period. I have no interest in an arena horse or that type of movement/temperament. Show rockies have to be much hotter, have more lift (in front) and are more forward just to get noticed. Who wants that in a trail horse?? 90% of the people who want these horses, want trail companions. All my pedigrees are foundation, the best in the country.

We compete in trail competitions when we can. Hondo has placed in the top 3 as has the the young one we put under saddle last year, and prior to being sold. We compete when time and distance allow. I'll be riding Hondo and two daughters will be riding geldings I've raised and put under saddle in the SMTR trail competition this month.

I breed raise and train trail companions who are quiet, good minded and smooth. Show lines tend towards more refinement, animation and lift then a trail horse needs, so i choose pedigrees which give me what i want in our stock. Larger size, quieter temperament an overall more easy going animal - like my stallion and stud colt.

The proof is in the pudding. The animals we raise and train are ridden everywhere. Local vets love them because they are the quietest horses they see in practice, even when very young, the people we ride with love them and are amazed at how quiet they are, and most importantly, the owners love them because they are the kindest most easily handled, manageable horses available.

Next year several we bred will be undersaddle/certified and none which will be for sale. I bred them specifically to be added into our breeding herd, and they will reflect the choices we've made, doing it proudly.

I always thought that horses that could not perform 100% in show or competition were deamed back yard family or trail horses.
 
C

campinmutt

Guest
found this to be an interesting read...I did not write it..

Irresponsible Breeder’s List Of Excuses

1. When called out for bad breeding practices either in person or on an online forum, ALWAYS claim that you have been doing it for an extended period of time (generally over 5 years)/people love your horses/you breed ‘quality’.

2. Point out that you know a lot of people who breed horses just like you do. (Do so as if this makes you morally justified.)

3. Claim that “snobby show breeders” are only criticizing you because they are snobs/are jealous/are just mean. No way could they actually know what they’re talking about.

4. Claim that your horses go back to a famous ancestor. Never mind that the ancestor is in the 7th generation and the rest of the horses have all done nothing but reproduce like rabbits. Nevermind that they bear absolutely NO resemblance to aforementioned ancestor. Note, however, that they ARE a pretty color/foundation eligible/have flashy markings/have a surplus of hair/are shiny.

5. Claim that you are just trying to produce good ‘family horses’, therefore good ‘family horses’ are all you need for breeding.

6. When asked about HERDA, HYPP, OLWS or DSLD, enthusiastically point out that none of your horses show any outward signs of the disease and their parents/grandparents/siblings/aunts/uncles/cousins didn’t either, so they don’t require testing.

7. Point out that these tests cost too much and would cut into your profit margin/would make breeding impossible to afford. Be sure to champion the right of poor people to breed horses and the lack of ‘registry interference’.

8. Confidently assure worried rescuers that no horse you produce, or any of their get or grand get or great-grandget will end up in rescues or on dinner plates or in dogfood bowls because you have a bunch of friends who have told you that they’d like a foal from your breeding program.

9. Point out that you don’t need championships or working titles for your horses because you are breeding for temperament and your horses are really sweet.

10. Silence those annoying people who ask about your animals HERDA/HYPP/Fill-In-The-Blank health status by assuring them that buyers can return any afflicted foals and you will replace it with a breed-back for the mare/another foal of the same lineage.

11. If your breed or line is rare (or you have a “rare” color, or believe your breed or color is rare), be sure to remind everyone that you do not need to show or prove your breeding stock because you are doing the world a service by continuing this “rare” breed/color/line.

12. No matter what anyone else says, claim that you obviously know what you are doing because you’ve been breeding for a long time (see #1). Point to the hundreds of foals you’ve pumped out/sold/traded/ridden over the years as proof.

13. If this is your first attempt at breeding, make sure to remind everyone that you HAVE to breed your mare because how else are you going to learn how to breed/experience foaling?

14. Assure everyone that your horse does not need to be shown because you were assured by someone at the feed store/a local show/Horsetopia/the vet’s office/a friend that your horse is a perfect example of the breed.

15. Always remember that “rare” colors, oversized or undersized horses, and mixes of popular breeds are great selling points. Anyone who doesn’t think so is obviously not in tune with their customers’ wishes.

16. Claim that your horses are better because they are not inbred and are an ‘outcross’ to popular lines, as inbreeding obviously produces sick/stupid/deformed horse. If breeding cross-breeds, always point to “hybrid vigor” as proof of your horse’s superiority.

17. Assure everyone that your foals will not end up in rescues or slaughter houses because they are cute and well-mannered.

18. Claim that YOUR breed never ends up in rescues or slaughter houses, therefore your foals will never end up in these places.

19. If asked why you think your horses are breeding quality, point out that they have great ‘confirmation’ and/or a pretty color and a notable ancestor. Extra points awarded for using the term ‘Foundation’. Double Extra points if they are registered with the Blue Eyed Horse Association, American Grade Horse Registry, American Trail Horse Association or any color-only association. A crap-breeding Trifecta if that is their primary registration.

20. If you sell a lame or sick foal, always blame the new owners for making it lame or sick. If the owners are clearly not responsible, blame their vet.

21. If presented with irrefutable evidence proving you wrong on any excuses you have used, pretend your server did not receive the post/e-mail. Or, if you’re a moderator on the forum, lock or remove the thread. Extra points if you ban the poster who proved you wrong.

22. If all else fails, tell everyone who criticizes you to “get a life.” or to “stop being such a snob” or that you are successful breeders and know what you’re doing.
 

appendixqh

Silence!!! I Kill You!!!
AMEN!! That really is a great list! A little funny, but very very true. I think it is great when you can breed great minded horses with the intent of being able to show them in their respective breed shows, and if they don't make it there then they can make some great family or trail mounts.
 

FrmGrl

Get some!
found this to be an interesting read...I did not write it..

Irresponsible Breeder’s List Of Excuses

1. When called out for bad breeding practices either in person or on an online forum, ALWAYS claim that you have been doing it for an extended period of time (generally over 5 years)/people love your horses/you breed ‘quality’.

2. Point out that you know a lot of people who breed horses just like you do. (Do so as if this makes you morally justified.)

3. Claim that “snobby show breeders” are only criticizing you because they are snobs/are jealous/are just mean. No way could they actually know what they’re talking about.

That is fabulous! Sums it up very nicely.
 

Cowgirl

Well-Known Member
I just want to make a comment about the showing aspect. I don't raise or show horses, but I do raise (and used to show) sheep. Showing a breed of animal tends to exploit the breed and you can end up with the "same" breed of animal that has totally different characteristics than what you started out with. Take sheep for example. Many market breeds of sheep have been totally changed for the worse in order to win in the show ring. If you take a ribbon-winning Suffolk and try to put it out on pasture it would waste away to nothing. They've been bred to look tubey (long and lean) so their bodies cannot even handle living on forage like sheep are meant to do. No commercial sheep producer (or even someone wanting to raise sheep for their own use) would want sheep like that.

Some other breeds have been cross bred so much because judges starting placing taller animals. Some champion show breeds (like Romneys) are so totally crossbred it's not even funny.

Judges rule the breeding/showing world, and that's pathetic to me. Look at quarter horses. Some of the champion halter winners look ridiculous!

I don't give a darn if someone wins in the show ring. The proof is in the pudding. If you raise an animal that performs well for what you want, that's all that matters. Of course, conformation is very important still.
 
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