continued freakout over guns

glhs837

Power with Control
Not me. I see the kid start to take off and run and then get shot. I

Never pointed weapon at the officers, as for running, where to, towards the officer who had him covered from the other end of that aisle? They had eyes (and weapons) on him from two directions, not like he was getting away. So you are telling me that "running away", never having actually used your firearm, is a valid cause to shoot? One thing we can be sure, of, they way this was presented to begin with had no relation to what actually happened. And it goes back to what I have mentioned repeatedly, the "Us vs Everybody else" mentality that seems to be creeping into alww enforcement cannot be a good thing.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Never pointed weapon at the officers, as for running, where to, towards the officer who had him covered from the other end of that aisle? They had eyes (and weapons) on him from two directions, not like he was getting away. So you are telling me that "running away", never having actually used your firearm, is a valid cause to shoot? One thing we can be sure, of, they way this was presented to begin with had no relation to what actually happened. And it goes back to what I have mentioned repeatedly, the "Us vs Everybody else" mentality that seems to be creeping into alww enforcement cannot be a good thing.

As you, or someone, pointed out; they saw what they wanted to see; a crazy armed guy menacing the populace in an enclosed space.
 

Homeland

New Member
Never pointed weapon at the officers, as for running, where to, towards the officer who had him covered from the other end of that aisle? They had eyes (and weapons) on him from two directions, not like he was getting away. So you are telling me that "running away", never having actually used your firearm, is a valid cause to shoot? One thing we can be sure, of, they way this was presented to begin with had no relation to what actually happened. And it goes back to what I have mentioned repeatedly, the "Us vs Everybody else" mentality that seems to be creeping into alww enforcement cannot be a good thing.

I won't argue with you, as your position is as solid in your mind as is mine. The cop has a second to react. Your position makes a lot of presumptions. One, the kid knew the other cop was where he was. Two, the cop who shot knew the other cop was where he was. Three, the cop knew or should have known the kid was not going to do harm.

As stated this cop had a second to react. The kid could have dropped the weapon instead of running. An unfortunate reaction on his part. In today's multi-media world of active shooters, any idiot would know that it is going to get attention if you are walking around a store with a gun look a like.

This is a tragic situation, but I don't like your alternative. The cop waits until the person with the real gun can get away and then do harm to someone who had done nothing to be harmed.
 

glhs837

Power with Control
Both cops should know where each is, basic teamwork, not presumption. As a member of a team, it's my job both to let my teammates know where I am, and to be aware of where they are. As a guy who has spent more than 30 years on weapon load teams and has spent over 4,000 hours as a crew member on military aircraft, I do speak with a little authority on how teams should work. No presumption on my part as to what the kid knew. He had no idea where he was going, if indeed he was actually trying to go anywhere or was just startled. Not part of a team, a squirrel, really, who should be counted on to do one thing, the unexpected, that's what civilians faced with unexpected stressors do, since they have no training.

I'm saying the officer were sure they were in a combat situation, active shooter training doesn't leave any other option. A or B. No C to allow for the stupidity of civilians. Should the officer let a shooter get away? Of course not. that presumes it was a shooter, of course. Its' that presumption I challenge. Not shots fired, no wounded people on scene. You say he had a second. Long enough to actually analyze what the "shooter" was doing. "Hmm, he's on a cell phone, lets see what happens, but if he raises the weapon, I'm firing" If the bad guy has his weapon pointed at the floor, and you have yours drawn, I would think you have the second. And yes, I've had training under stress, so I know it's hard to make those calls. But that's WHY we train under stress.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Both cops should know where each is, basic teamwork, not presumption. As a member of a team, it's my job both to let my teammates know where I am, and to be aware of where they are. As a guy who has spent more than 30 years on weapon load teams and has spent over 4,000 hours as a crew member on military aircraft, I do speak with a little authority on how teams should work. No presumption on my part as to what the kid knew. He had no idea where he was going, if indeed he was actually trying to go anywhere or was just startled. Not part of a team, a squirrel, really, who should be counted on to do one thing, the unexpected, that's what civilians faced with unexpected stressors do, since they have no training.

I'm saying the officer were sure they were in a combat situation, active shooter training doesn't leave any other option. A or B. No C to allow for the stupidity of civilians. Should the officer let a shooter get away? Of course not. that presumes it was a shooter, of course. Its' that presumption I challenge. Not shots fired, no wounded people on scene. You say he had a second. Long enough to actually analyze what the "shooter" was doing. "Hmm, he's on a cell phone, lets see what happens, but if he raises the weapon, I'm firing" If the bad guy has his weapon pointed at the floor, and you have yours drawn, I would think you have the second. And yes, I've had training under stress, so I know it's hard to make those calls. But that's WHY we train under stress.

I think you nail what the problem is with this one; the 'shooter' did nothing to indicate threat. No blood when they got to the story. No citizens running in panic. No call of shots fired. No thing to indicate 'active' shooter. That 'second' to decided should have become 1.5 and then 2 and then an exhale, pause, assess.

They failed.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
Armed contractor with criminal record was on elevator with Obama in Atlanta


The private contractor first aroused the agents’ concerns when he acted oddly and did not comply with their orders to stop using a cellphone camera to record the president in the elevator, according to the people familiar with the incident.

When the elevator opened, Obama left with most of his Secret Service detail. Some agents stayed behind to question the man and then used a national database check that turned up his criminal history.

When a supervisor from the firm providing security at the CDC approached and discovered the agents’ concerns, the contractor was fired on the spot. Then the contractor agreed to turn over his gun — surprising agents, who had not realized that he was armed during his encounter with Obama.

Extensive screening is supposed to keep people with weapons or criminal histories out of arm’s reach of the president. But it appears that this man, possessing a gun, came within inches of the president after undergoing no such screening.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
As you, or someone, pointed out; they saw what they wanted to see; a crazy armed guy menacing the populace in an enclosed space.


Indeed .....


Yesterday I wrote about another police shooting, the killing of John Crawford in a Beavercreek, Ohio, Walmart. I suggested that the incident may have been due to the sensationalization of mass shooting incidents, and the misperception that such incidents are common. After my post went up, the Guardian reported that indeed, the officer who shot Crawford had recently attended an a “pep talk” for police about responding to calls that may involve an active shooter.

The police officer who shot dead a young black man in a Walmart store in Ohio as he held an unloaded BB rifle had less than two weeks earlier received what prosecutors called a “pep talk” on how to deal aggressively with suspected gunmen.

[clip]

A set of 11 slides from a presentation given to officers in the July session was made public by special prosecutor Mark Piepmeier, who presented the slides and other evidence to a grand jury in Greene County, which on Wednesday declined to indict Williams on criminal charges.

[clip]

Another slide told officers to consider that such an “active threat” was “in a building with the person I love the most” and then decide whether they would want police to wait outside for backup or “enter the building and find the threat as fast as possible”.

The police were taught to keep in mind that “the suspect wants a body count” and therefore officers should immediately engage a would-be gunman with “speed, surprise and aggressiveness” to prevent them from inflicting injuries or deaths.

After training like that, is it any wonder why the police failed to give Crawford an opportunity to surrender his “weapon?”



Ohio police given 'pep talk' on shooting scenarios ahead of Walmart encounter

Sean Williams, who killed John Crawford in store, was among those shown presentation encouraging aggressive action


About 80 seconds before Crawford was shot dead by the police officer, Ritchie told the dispatcher: “He just pointed it at, like, two children.” The surveillance footage shows that he in fact stood still with the rifle at his side as the children and their mother browsed further down the aisle. After another 40 seconds later, the dispatcher asked Ritchie: “You said he pointed it at a couple of kids?” Ritchie replied: “Right”.
 

glhs837

Power with Control
Here's the piece that scares me.......

"Referencing the Sandy Hook massacre, Piepmeier (the special Prosecutor) said: “Were the police facing such a situation here? No. Did they know that? No. They’re told ‘We’ve got a guy in here with a rifle, he’s holding the rifle, and he’s pointing it at people.’

So, given ignorance, shooting first is okay, rather than expecting an officer to try and learn what's going on. Discretion needs to be taught to balance the aggression we ask for in response to citizen with a gun calls. I would say your odds of encountering a real active shooter who has not actually shot anyone before you got there are pretty slim vice a citizen who isn't going to shoot anyone. Still have a plan and the readiness to kill threats, just temper that with some idea that there might very well be an innocent on the other end of that weapon.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
Here's the piece that scares me.......

Still have a plan and the readiness to kill threats, just temper that with some idea that there might very well be an innocent on the other end of that weapon.

what I don't get is Ritchie to the 911 dispatcher: yeah he is pointing a gun a people
The Video shows indeed he was not ..... some one should be answering for this


Ritchie for giving false information or the police for shooting too damn fast .....



2 shootings involving Airsoft guns in the last yr

one 9 seconds from the time the officer saw the teen with the 'ak-47' until the boy was dead
more recently - someone eluded to in a post - 2 seconds from start to finish the boy with the airsoft pistol was dead


unpopular though it may be I'll repeat myself:
- yep the JOB is dangerous, and LOW Pay
- Police get paid to take a bullet
- troops in Iraq / Afghanistan had tighter Rules of Engagement in a combat zone - they actually had to be getting shot at 1st.



twitchy hyper aggressive cops 'I'm Officer Obey' do as I command citizens are always wrong attitudes don't help
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
what I don't get is Ritchie to the 911 dispatcher: yeah he is pointing a gun a people
The Video shows indeed he was not ..... some one should be answering for this


Ritchie for giving false information or the police for shooting too damn fast .....



2 shootings involving Airsoft guns in the last yr

one 9 seconds from the time the officer saw the teen with the 'ak-47' until the boy was dead
more recently - someone eluded to in a post - 2 seconds from start to finish the boy with the airsoft pistol was dead


unpopular though it may be I'll repeat myself:
- yep the JOB is dangerous, and LOW Pay
- Police get paid to take a bullet
- troops in Iraq / Afghanistan had tighter Rules of Engagement in a combat zone - they actually had to be getting shot at 1st.



twitchy hyper aggressive cops 'I'm Officer Obey' do as I command citizens are always wrong attitudes don't help

Excellent post.

It is a simple fact that every one of us is hard wired for fight or flight. If cops engage you aggressively, they KNOW they are pushing your button and their training tries to over come your instinct with hyper aggression. I don't give a #### who you are, if you're wired to fight, you will, at the very least, hesitate, when ordered even if you are guilty.

It is a sickening fact that we allow our police to be more aggressive with a kid and a potential toy weapon, with us, than we allow our troops to be when we send them off to war.
 

Inkd

Active Member
what I don't get is Ritchie to the 911 dispatcher: yeah he is pointing a gun a people
The Video shows indeed he was not ..... some one should be answering for this


Ritchie for giving false information or the police for shooting too damn fast .....



2 shootings involving Airsoft guns in the last yr

one 9 seconds from the time the officer saw the teen with the 'ak-47' until the boy was dead
more recently - someone eluded to in a post - 2 seconds from start to finish the boy with the airsoft pistol was dead


unpopular though it may be I'll repeat myself:
- yep the JOB is dangerous, and LOW Pay
- Police get paid to take a bullet
- troops in Iraq / Afghanistan had tighter Rules of Engagement in a combat zone - they actually had to be getting shot at 1st.



twitchy hyper aggressive cops 'I'm Officer Obey' do as I command citizens are always wrong attitudes don't help


Sorry man, cops do not get paid to take a bullet. Secret Service agents, maybe, cops, no.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Sorry man, cops do not get paid to take a bullet. Secret Service agents, maybe, cops, no.

Serve and protect means serve and protect the public. That used to mean that they would take more risks than the citizen to protect the citizen. Now, it means warrior cop, body armor, armed like a spec ops guy with an MRAP roaring to the scene for backup.
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
Serve and protect means serve and protect the public. That used to mean that they would take more risks than the citizen to protect the citizen. Now, it means warrior cop, body armor, armed like a spec ops guy with an MRAP roaring to the scene for backup.

We had cops training on base here with an MRAP about a month ago. The only way I knew they were cops was because of the Sherriff's cruisers sitting in the parking lot. Every single one of them was dressed in digi camo, tactical vests, carrying M-4's and practicing exiting an MRAP and storming a building. Looked no different than Marines in Fallujah and I'm not exaggerating.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
We had cops training on base here with an MRAP about a month ago. The only way I knew they were cops was because of the Sherriff's cruisers sitting in the parking lot. Every single one of them was dressed in digi camo, tactical vests, carrying M-4's and practicing exiting an MRAP and storming a building. Looked no different than Marines in Fallujah and I'm not exaggerating.


:yay:

Militarization of Local Law Enforcement .... only their ROE are shoot 1st and call the coroner
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
We had cops training on base here with an MRAP about a month ago. The only way I knew they were cops was because of the Sherriff's cruisers sitting in the parking lot. Every single one of them was dressed in digi camo, tactical vests, carrying M-4's and practicing exiting an MRAP and storming a building. Looked no different than Marines in Fallujah and I'm not exaggerating.

Land of the free. Home of the brave.
 

Inkd

Active Member
Serve and protect means serve and protect the public. That used to mean that they would take more risks than the citizen to protect the citizen. Now, it means warrior cop, body armor, armed like a spec ops guy with an MRAP roaring to the scene for backup.

So they don't take any more risks today? Wow, cool, I can tell my brother that there are no more risks. Leave the vest at home, lock up the gun. There are no more risks!!!!! Yipee!!!!!

Cops of yesterday didn't have to deal with a quarter of the crap that cops today have to deal with. Most disputes back then were handled with a lead sap. Nowadays everyone has a video camera and for some reason, criminals are the victims.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
So they don't take any more risks today? Wow, cool, I can tell my brother that there are no more risks. Leave the vest at home, lock up the gun. There are no more risks!!!!! Yipee!!!!!

Cops of yesterday didn't have to deal with a quarter of the crap that cops today have to deal with. Most disputes back then were handled with a lead sap. Nowadays everyone has a video camera and for some reason, criminals are the victims.

So, the solution is MRAP's, hyper aggressive cops and all the stories and documentation of abuse of power and authority? Just all or nothing? That it? MOST cops due a fabulous job of balancing their authority and their discretion. Not all do. The ones that #### up cause enormous harm. The police should never be seen as covering for their own. Never. Your brother can tell you how it really is. Maybe cops never cover for one anothers mistakes. Maybe there is no reason to do anything but trust them absolutely.
 

Inkd

Active Member
:yay:

Militarization of Local Law Enforcement .... only their ROE are shoot 1st and call the coroner

Are they calling in airstrikes, artillery? No. Then so much for the militarization of law enforcement.

Lets talk about the militarization of the criminals now?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9SJi7G_QY0

North Hollywood shootout. Cops were so outgunned a local gun shop gave the officers 2 AR's to use. Seven cops were shot. But, I guess that's okay. They were paid to take those bullets.
 
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