David's Challenge on Tolerance...

harleygirl · Nov 30, 2005

Hessian said:
You discriminate don't you?
You are intolerant of certain things arent you?
You show prejudice every day in some way right?

Now before I give you examples....I'll let you find some examples on your own. Does that mean you are uneducated, hateful, and living in fear?

NOT at All. We all practice those three things on different levels. The confusion rests on how MUCH we tolerate/discriminate/ or show prejudice toward.

Sure Hessian, trust me I am far removed from perfect. I would like to think my best attributes are an open mind, and a love for all types of people, regardless of thier core value and beliefs. And believe it or not, I enjoy talking to you and hearing your personal thoughts on religion.

supersurfer · Nov 30, 2005

Hessian said:
and Supersurfer...
"Do you think any one sin is worse than another in the eyes of "God"?

That is an interesting question...certainly all sin is not welcome in God's presence and it would appear that the OT had a variety of penalties for a variety of sins. Scripture does list a series of forgivable sins but also lists one that cannot be forgiven.
In other points, Paul says..."may it not be found among you." Does that mean they lose their salvation if it is found????? No..especially if one asks to repent.

I Think 2ndAmendment would give you a fuller discussion on that question.

and yes...If God calls something an "abomination" thousands of years ago...it is still an abomination today-He never Changes.

I'll buy that the Bible teaches that there is one unforgivable sin. Blasphemy of the "Holy Spirit", correct? Blasphemy=A victimless crime.

Eff the Holy Spirit. Any other ways that I can blaspheme him?

2A, discuss? :killingme

He would much rather just have someone listen and not question.

2ndAmendment · Nov 30, 2005

supersurfer said:
2A, discuss? He would much rather just have someone listen and not question.

I have openly discussed God and the Bible with many. Some agree with me and some don't. That's OK. Each of us choose our own path. I just recognize that you have only one agenda here, Christian bashing. Your mind is closed just as you accuse me. And since you have, by your own admission, blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, there is nothing to discuss with you.

Hessian · Nov 30, 2005

2nd Ammend..

I have walked down this road of the wicked--spewing scripture who have no clue how to separate God's laws...especially when dealing with the OT that applied to Israel.

I'd have to dig back a few years and you know what: i doubt any reasoning I would bring to the table would be scoffed at and mocked. Proverbs gives the advice that I shouldn't bother wasting my time. Do you agree?

And E-Pricks:YOU are the one who came in here with the idea to stir things up and sticking your nose in our business...then you get in a huff at the "unfriendly" attitude you provoke.
So go jump in your saphron-colored bathrobe, pour yourself a latte' and quit screaming at the world
"ACCEPT ME ACCEPT ME!!!"
We have all been down this road before and you only bring on more contempt with your bitter anti-biblical spite.

Esprix · Nov 30, 2005

Hessian said:
And E-Pricks:YOU are the one who came in here with the idea to stir things up and sticking your nose in our business...then you get in a huff at the "unfriendly" attitude you provoke.
So go jump in your saphron-colored bathrobe, pour yourself a latte' and quit screaming at the world
"ACCEPT ME ACCEPT ME!!!"
We have all been down this road before and you only bring on more contempt with your bitter anti-biblical spite.

Again, you seem to have a different version of "debate" than I do, and it seems to involve name-calling and obfuscation. You asked a question about whether or not you should be tolerant, and when offered points of view that you obviously don't agree with, you show a lot of intolerance. It seems you've had your mind made up and closed to any other point of view from the start, which is contrary to the word "debate."

I'm not telling you what to do, I'm asking you questions. You say the Bible is infallable and unchangable, yet you refuse to answer the questions raised by the article I quoted. (Did you even read it?) It seems, then, that you're not interested in a debate, you're interested in espousing your views and looking for affirmation. If that's what you want, then you shouldn't have posed it as a debate, but here you go - you can believe whatever you want to believe. There's your affirmation.

Have a nice day! :howdy:

Esprix

2ndAmendment · Nov 30, 2005

Hessian said:
Proverbs gives the advice that I shouldn't bother wasting my time. Do you agree?

We need to be true to Jesus' great commission.

Matthew 28:18-20

18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

It is a Christian's job to proclaim God's love and grace for repentant sinners, like us, and the wrath that will surely come to those that do not follow Him. But, as Jesus told His disciples, we should "shake the dust from our sandals" when we walk away from those that reject the message.

Luke 9:1-5

1And He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all the demons and to heal diseases. 2And He sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to perform healing.

3And He said to them, "Take nothing for your journey, neither a staff, nor a bag, nor bread, nor money; and do not even have two tunics apiece.

4"Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that city.

5"And as for those who do not receive you, as you go out from that city, shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them."

So if someone is not adversarial, serve them as you should. If someone is adversarial, don't bother with them. It is not a Christian's job to try to argue someone into believing; it can't be done.

Remember, our fight is spiritual. Satan knows scripture better than any man. Satan tried to temp Jesus after His fast by quoting scripture.

Matthew 4:1-11

1Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry.

3And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."

4But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"

5Then the devil took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple,

6and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written,
'HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU';
and
'ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP,
SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.'"

7Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'"

8Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;

9and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me."

10Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"

11Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.

Fight the good fight until the end.

Ephesians 6:10-18

10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. 11Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.

12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

13Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

14Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,

15and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;

16in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

17And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

18With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,

harleygirl · Nov 30, 2005

Hessian said:
I have walked down this road of the wicked--spewing scripture who have no clue how to separate God's laws...especially when dealing with the OT that applied to Israel.

I'd have to dig back a few years and you know what: i doubt any reasoning I would bring to the table would be scoffed at and mocked. Proverbs gives the advice that I shouldn't bother wasting my time. Do you agree?

And E-Pricks:YOU are the one who came in here with the idea to stir things up and sticking your nose in our business...then you get in a huff at the "unfriendly" attitude you provoke.
So go jump in your saphron-colored bathrobe, pour yourself a latte' and quit screaming at the world
"ACCEPT ME ACCEPT ME!!!"
We have all been down this road before and you only bring on more contempt with your bitter anti-biblical spite.

Hey Hessian, I have read through some of your quoted websites, and although I do not agree with the majority of things stated, I kept an open mind and found it at least interesting. I have a great book for you to read sometime, it is one of my favorites. It is called the "Seven Spiritual Laws of Success" by Deepak Chopra. It does have a very strong religious theme, and as for me personally I found it fascinating. I am just curious to see what your viewpoint would be.

Hessian · Nov 30, 2005

Yes Harley...

I have heard of Deepak before ...correct me here but did he do "Signs" with Mel Gibson? That had some serious depth and good themes.
Unfortunately my time on casual reading is limited to summer and I normally have collected a lot of non-fiction to pour over. Thanks for the suggestion. I will look for some of his works at the used book store (if I can handle NPR over the stereo! :drama:

)

Yes 2nd...maybe I will give it a try but...if I veer off course: I could use a decent navigator.

Regarding the magazine list/web posting/syndicated mockery of God's laws...

Some laws were written while the Hebrews were trekking from Egypt-to-Israel
Are they applicable now? NO....but the principles are still valid.

Some laws were written to address certain cultural norms: Sanitation, owning servants/slaves etc.
Are they applicable now? No...but the principles are still valid.

Some laws were royal edicts or the utterance of prophets targetting a specific nation/culture/subgroup
Are they applicable now? You be the judge...when did you see an Edomite last?

Some Laws guide the Family
Are they applicable now?... All the principles are still valid.

What did Israel do when they lost control of the Temple...or the Ark of the Covenant...or the Temple was destroyed? Didn't the laws prescribe sacrifices & feasts that had to be observed but...the setting for them was gone? Did God punish them for breaking His laws...um no: HE KNEW why they couldn't observe them.

Are Christians just a bunch of "Cafeteria buffet pickers?" (as I have been told in a red Kharma comment :razz:

) No.

They have read God's word and know that the principles of the 10 commandments are absolutely sound...but the instructions on building th tabernacle: not necessary for millions of GENTILE Christians.

So...If you want to sneer about God not addressing Gay behavior in the 10 commandments and only in Leviticus where all these rules are "inappropriate" for today--feel free. But what will you do with all the verses in the New Testament regarding sex outside of marriage...effeminate behavior...given over to lust...lasciviousness ETC.??? Blame Paul as a Homophobe?
Claim that all the Disciples were gay? (as I recently heard)

Paul & Peter work out the details in ACTS regarding the "Judiazers" who wanted to import a lot of the traditional Jewish practices & ordinances & rabbinical teachings into the early church. Paul boiled down the core belief system for a new age of Gentile believers...without having to observe all the older statutes. Nowhere did he contradict or reverse God's laws...although he did clear up some of Man's rules that had smothered God's clear intent. BUT: in his instructions to the various churches...he spells out both principles & rules that should be upheld--some addressing key problems in the church...some addressing sound practices for ALL Christians.

With all that said...and making clear what has likely been said many times before when faced with a ludicrous list of accusations...I bet I have not satisfied a single issue in a warped mind. And thus wasted 40 minutes. However, hopefully someone will say...OK, well that makes a little more sense.

2nd Ammend...feel free to clear up anything I botched in explaining.

Esprix · Nov 30, 2005

Now wait a minute. The very first line of this thread is:

Hessian said:
Basic ground rules: Old & New Testament are the combined writings of men inspired by the Holy Spirit, inherently the Word of God....not to be discounted, edited, or watered down with modern "translations."

(Emphasis mine.) Then you say:

If God calls something an "abomination" thousands of years ago...it is still an abomination today-He never Changes.

Now suddenly you have a litany of excuses why everything Wink pointed out - all things the Bible clearly says are acceptable or should be followed but that we no longer observe - are perfectly reasonable to reject.

Make up your mind, would you?

Esprix

Hessian · Dec 1, 2005

One does not use the Living Bible to debate doctrine...one does not use the woman's devotional Bible in Apologetics class...do you understand what a translation is?

There should be NO READER'S DIGEST VERSION
that is the issue addressed in post #1

God Never Changes....the way he has dealt with man...does change: we don't have Prophets wandering around today saying 'Woe to You Prince George's County..."(although that would be nice.) No patriarchs, No Levites.
GOD DOES NOT CHANGE...his communication with man does. He doesn't go back on anything he has said or ordered....there is no Ooops with God.
POINT #2

So I wasted 40 minutes trying to clarify how God's mandates have veracity for an instance in dealing with man,...and His Laws reflect unchanging principles behind those laws. In no way should those previous dictates be editted out because they illustrate how God has dealt with mankind.(throughout history)
I have not wavered, not editted, not whitewahed anything...

yet once again you giggle with Mr Wink at things you don't understand and when explained to you...it still doesn't make sense. This "is pure act"
God has allowed hearts to be hardened (Pharoah)...has allowed people to have clouded minds (Saul) and in his Providence,...allowed them to fail/die for their stubborness and blindness....Both rejected his prophets, flaunted His warnings-ignoring what was right.

so once again:I have illustrated how God does not change to this day-He still does those things.

Esprix · Dec 1, 2005

Hessian said:
I have not wavered, not editted, not whitewahed anything...

No, but danced quite adeptly around simple questions put to you.

yet once again you giggle with Mr Wink at things you don't understand and when explained to you...it still doesn't make sense.

You haven't explained anything, except to make excuses for why you follow some parts of the Bible and why you won't follow others. That's painfully clear.

But, as you've gathered, you're not going to be changing my mind any time soon (nor I yours). Thanks for letting me know your beliefs (and calling mine ignorant, sinful and blasphemy - bygones!), but you've failed to convince me that I should believe them, too. So I remain not a Christian, not taking the Bible as the authority of God, and therefore not beholden to your laws.

But hey, it made for a nice "debate." :howdy:

Esprix

2ndAmendment · Dec 1, 2005

Hessian said:
...2nd Ammend...feel free to clear up anything I botched in explaining.

You did pretty well.

Christians are under grace not law.

John 1:16-18

 16For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

 17For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

 18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Romans 6:8-23

 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

 15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

 20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.

 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.

 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 2:15-21

 15"We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;

 16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

 17"But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!

 18"For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor.

 19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

 20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

All of the Bible is worthy of learning. The laws that covered cleanliness and other health issues may not be necessary today because of processes and medical treatments, but if society breaks down so that we have to live a more basic life without all the pasteurization and other sterilization of food products, then those laws may again be applicable. They are certainly applicable now when wilderness camping or in a survival situation. The laws about slavery apply to our work ethic. Slaves, do a good job for your master -> employees, do a good job for your employer. Masters, treat your slaves well and do not abuse them. -> Employers, treat your employees with respect and give them an honest wage. What is wrong with that?

2 Timothy 3:16-17

 16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Many today that belong to some church do not believe the Bible as the infallible word of God and seek churches and pastors that will preach what they want to hear rather than the truth.

2 Timothy 4:1-4

 1I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

 4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

The pastors, priests, ministers, and teachers that do not teach the truth but tickle the ears are, among others, I believe, those that Jesus spoke of here.

Matthew 7:21-23

 21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

You are right that those that reject God's grace and pursue unrighteousness will not inherit the kingdom of God. Fleeing immorality is absolute for Christians, because our bodies are a dwelling place of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:9-20

 9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

 12All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

13Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both of them Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body.

 14Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power.

 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!

 16Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH."

 17But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

 18Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.

19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

 20For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

David's Challenge on Tolerance...

harleygirl

Working for the weekend

supersurfer

New Member

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner

Hessian

Well-Known Member

Esprix

New Member

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner

harleygirl

Working for the weekend

Hessian

Well-Known Member

Esprix

New Member

Hessian

Well-Known Member

Esprix

New Member

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner