Dealing with People "Spreading the Word"

[Frank]

Originally posted by Tonio


BudoPo, I don't blame you one bit. The whole concept of proselytizing troubles me, because it assumes that there is One True Faith. Throughout human history, that notion has led to the deaths of millions.

It doesn't bother me, but I don't assume that is the reason (although it often is pretty close). It's advertising. It's no more obnoxious to me than someone advertising a pool party or a BBQ. They like it, and they want others to know about it. I tell people about my mechanic, who is outstanding, and fair.

Some religions, such as Islam - frequently execute people for violating religious laws. But I know of no conflict in history that could reasonably be considered religious in nature where millions have died. Wars are not fought over religious ideology. Wars are only frequently *justified* by means of religious ideology. They are also justified by other means as well - revenge, "breathing room" etc.

 

[Tonio]

Originally posted by Frank


It doesn't bother me, but I don't assume that is the reason (although it often is pretty close). It's advertising. It's no more obnoxious to me than someone advertising a pool party or a BBQ. They like it, and they want others to know about it. I tell people about my mechanic, who is outstanding, and fair.

Some religions, such as Islam - frequently execute people for violating religious laws. But I know of no conflict in history that could reasonably be considered religious in nature where millions have died. Wars are not fought over religious ideology. Wars are only frequently *justified* by means of religious ideology. They are also justified by other means as well - revenge, "breathing room" etc.

Very thoughtful reply, Frank.

I agree that most proselytizing is benign, like advertising. I was referring to the rationale behind it. I tell people about my car mechanic too. But I don't state or even imply that people who choose other mechanics will spend eternity in hell. ("The Jiffy Lubers are in league with Satan! They refuse to use 30-weight oil, only that wicked 40-weight!")

I used "millions" as a cumulative figure from throughout history, not to refer to any specific conflict. You're right in that wars are frequently justified through religious ideology. I see that justification as propaganda. Many believers are convinced to fight in those wars because one side claims to fight for the same deity. Atrocities such as the Inquisition, the Holocaust and the recent Balkan wars were partly due to cultural bigotry, but religious bigotry was definitely a factor. What a tragedy that faith and spirituality are perverted in the service of hatred.

 

[BudoPo]

The best prayer I've heard was from some guy on the MacNeil/Leher News Hour (I forget the topic of discussion): "Lord, let me seek the truth, but spare me from those who know it."

Yep, I'd agree that religion is responsible for more bloodshed than anything else (or, at least violence in the name of religion). It's just a manifestation of the "us vs. them" mentality that's been around since caveman days.

Jimmy, just a minor point here. Having a bunch of different groups believing their religion is the only true one doesn't really verify being an agnostic or atheist. Whether or not God exists is a different issue than which religion (if any) is "the right one".

 

[RoseRed]

Originally posted by BudoPo
"Lord, let me seek the truth, but spare me from those who know it."

I love it!

 

[jimmy]

Budo,

It's all the justifcation I need when I see the whole world as lost as I am about spirituality and divinity. Everyone finds their own path; even within the religion there is turmoil and debate.

Therefore, since I can't find a reason why one is more 'right' than the other, I choose to be agnostic.

Doesn't speak to the existance or non-existance of God, yes, but it IS the very reason why I personally choose to be agnostic.

 

[BudoPo]

Jimmy,

Sounds good. I was just pointing out that part in your reasoning, but I think your reason for being agnostic is fine. Glad to know you realize it.

 

[Hessian]

I guess door to door evangelism has been taken over mostly by Mormons and JW's...although it was the mainstay of the 1960's-70's in the evangelical churches...I never did but I certainly know plenty who do.

Interesting view coming from the other side. I suppose that everyone reaches a point in their life when they want things to make sense...want a sense of purpose...want to know what is after death or the reasons why things happen. If one tries to talk about faith with these people...then there is some openess but for those who have built up a wall of contempt and labels for believers...I can see that a visit with a believer just makes you more disgusted by them.

Look at it from a slightly different perspective: People want others to find the same satisfaction, peace, assurance, that they have found.
However....I understand the contempt for the "buddy" method. I can see how that is seen as deceptive IF it means just getting one person in the pew or filling some sort of quota. If they are genuinely trying to befriend you with no ulterior motives...they should back off religion and wait til you feel that you want to discuss it.

There are many ways to reach out to those who are "lost." (I know that just frazzled a bunch of you...sorry) but the chief way is to meet needs...not lure, intimidate, or beguile someone into it. There will come a time in everyone's life when they are interested in answers...just not when you're doing laundry and playing computer games.
My apologies on behalf of some of my more zealous brothers for pushing too hard.

 

[BudoPo]

Hessian,

I understand their perspective, and that in their mnds they're doing something good. That's one reason why I'm not rude to them and don't really have contempt for them. What bothers me is that they feel that theirs is the only way, and I must be "saved". So they come and interrupt whatever I'm doing and if I should discuss my views with them, they invariably have strange reasoning for their view, or at the least a misunderstanding of my religion. When I tell them right off the bat that I'm not interested, they just dont take "no" for an answer (although they are pretty bewildered when I say "I'm not worried about going to hell, since I don't believe in Jesus").

But what really annoys me is the extra special effort to which they go to "save" Jews. They actually have booklets specially prepared for this situation to hand out. Are Jews so different from others "needing" to be saved? Perhaps it's because (in their minds) all the Christian people they meet just need to return to the Church, whereas Jews need to find it in the first place. But these booklets and their arguments never have an accurate knowledge of Judaism; they twist it to fit their message. Considering the trouble this has caused (to Jews especially) over the centuries, I just find it very inconsiderate that people would not only continue to spread the word, but to specially target a group of people.

 

[Tonio]

Originally posted by BudoPo
But what really annoys me is the extra special effort to which they go to "save" Jews. They actually have booklets specially prepared for this situation to hand out. Are Jews so different from others "needing" to be saved? Perhaps it's because (in their minds) all the Christian people they meet just need to return to the Church, whereas Jews need to find it in the first place. But these booklets and their arguments never have an accurate knowledge of Judaism; they twist it to fit their message. Considering the trouble this has caused (to Jews especially) over the centuries, I just find it very inconsiderate that people would not only continue to spread the word, but to specially target a group of people.

Simpsons creator Matt Groening tells this story from high school--a club of fundamentalist Christian students went around telling Jewish students they were going to hell. EXTREMELY offensive thing to do. But instead of getting angry, Groening and his friends turned to satire. They started a club called Teens for Decency and began looking for converts. When someone refused, the response was, "What's the matter? Are you against decency?"

 

[Penn]

Religious Recruiters on the Road

Hey, BuduPo, saw your latest on the folks bugging you while you were working on the car. For one thing, you were open season right out there in the open---- they didn't have to ring your doorbell! Were they Jehovah Winesses? That's a hoot, trying to get you to listen/convert a man of Jewish faith.
Something else that came up in our class in Jewish Roots in Christianity was that MOST of the Jewish folk in Israel today are non-messianic(if I heard this right), and they do not believe in Jesus Christ. Well, when he comes back, according to scripture; the Book of Revelation, he's supposed to come back to Israel first. HOW is that going to play out? Weren't they the ones who denied him in the first place?

penncam

 

[BudoPo]

Penncam, they were Baptists. They came back once, about a week after the car incident, and haven't been back since (knock on wood). Like I said in my posts, I don't really mind them coming around "spreading the word" (well, so long as they keep it brief), since I know in their minds, they're doing something good. It's the specific targeting of Jews that annoys me (as if we don't have enough problems).

As for most of the Jews in Israel not being messianic, well, messianic Jews are a very small group. I'd guess that at least 95% of all Jews world wide are not messianic. The acceptance of Jesus as the messiah, as described in the Christian bible and certain aspects of the subsequent Christian religion are contrary to Judaism, so I can't see how someone can accept Jesus and still call themselves Jewish. Please don't read that as any criticism of the Christian faiths; I'm just pointing out that there are differences.

I met some messianic Jews once (friends of friends of mine). They were nice enough, and invited me to their services, but after talking with them a bit, it was clear that they hadn't thought through their beliefs. They said they were Jews who have just accepted Jesus, but they really just gave the concept a cursory look.

 

[Penn]

Spreading the Word

Thank you for your reply to my question. You see, last year I found myself "getting into" religion more, the clergy at my church, how should I say it, "provoked", I guess is as good as any, this wanting to know more about Jesus Christ/God/the Holy Spirit thing. I don't mean to sound flip or rude, and by the way, they same goes about my query to you; after I thought about the language I used when I asked you your thoughts, well I just hoped I hadn't offended you or your beliefs.
My church offered a 34 week class called Disciple, which I enrolled in, and we went through every book in the Old and New Testaments. The first thing we had to do was make a choice whether we believed the Bible to be true or a work of fiction. The answer is yes; there's way too many things that coincide with each other for it to be the latter. It's not an easy read, by any means, but it's a good read, nonetheless.
So all this gaining of knowledge/insight pushes you only more to want to discover. Almost every week during our homework assignments, I'd read a passage and get smacked right in the forehead with a new (sorry) revelation. "WoW! like I never realized that!!!" I'd have to get back to the class and get my instructor's read on what it was that floored me.
I would say the person who impressed me the most after the Trinity is the Apostle Paul. What that man did for the Gentiles and Christianity is astounding. What courage! Anyway, that's my story---- and I'm still learning.

penncam

 

[BudoPo]

No offense taken, in the least. You've come across as nothing but polite.

It sounds like a cool course you're taking, where you can really look into the Bible and come to your own views. I'd like to get a copy of the Talmud (volumes of Jewish commentary of the Old Testament), but it's out of my price range. It's pretty good for contemplation, though.

 

[Penn]

Spreading the Word

BuduPo, again thanks for your understanding. I guess what's ironic is that two years ago, the concept, the idea that I would be having a conversation over the Internet with someone about Religion would have been totally strange. Hah! It's not that I ever lost faith in the Lord, but I guess I backed away from Him in the course of everyday life. I've heard a sermon or two dealing with that thread; that people allow the emotions of their lives to come between them and our Savior. Mostly, it's greed, the pursuit of the finer things, keeping up with what your neighbor's got, and etc.
At my church, we had a lady Pastor deliver a telling sermon in which she said "God never moves away or fails you, it's you who moves away from him." Then she said "the most wonderful thing about it is He's always there waiting for you to recieve His love..........
I'd heard those thoughts as a kid, but they never meant that much as that Sunday. I realize you are of a different faith than me, and that's fine. How and where you worship the Lord is your business,(although I believe He said in so many words it should be in the company of others who are likeminded, and back then I guess it would have been in a Synagogue).
I told my mother that I was taking this course, and she about went into a swoon! Later when they asked me to be a Layreader and I accepted(I had to tell her), I thought maybe she felt her life had been fulfulled! " My Son, My Son"...... oh heck, I do go on.
Anyway, one last thought; you guys sure have a cool way delivering a blessing to people. This Synagogue Leader we listened to would close each of his classes with--- I'm hope I'm right---- a chant or prayer that Moses would bestow upon his followers after coming down from Mt. Sinai(?) from a meeting with the Almighty. Quite beautiful.

penncam

 

[BudoPo]

Re: Spreading the Word

At my church, we had a lady Pastor deliver a telling sermon in which she said "God never moves away or fails you, it's you who moves away from him." Then she said "the most wonderful thing about it is He's always there waiting for you to recieve His love

There's a story in the Talmud: A king has a son who strayed away from his father. One day, the king asked his son to return. The son said he could not. Then the king sent a messenger to tell the son to come back as far as he could, and he would meet him the rest of the way.

I realize you are of a different faith than me, and that's fine. How and where you worship the Lord is your business

When too many people don't have this view, there's usually (historically) much suffering.

Anyway, one last thought; you guys sure have a cool way delivering a blessing to people. This Synagogue Leader we listened to would close each of his classes with--- I'm hope I'm right---- a chant or prayer that Moses would bestow upon his followers after coming down from Mt. Sinai(?) from a meeting with the Almighty. Quite beautiful.

Thanks very much. BTW, just to clarify, if I'm not mistaken, he's not bestowing a blessing, but asking God to do so (the idea being that only He can bless). I'll have to look into benedictions, though. There's a benediction that only the Cohein (plural, Cohanim) can perform, at the end of a service (usually you only see this in Orthodox synagogues. Cohanim are a sub-group of the tribe Levi, and are descendants of Moses' brother, Aaron, and were the high priests (way back when). My mother is a Cohein, but I am not (tribe follows the father). I'm prettys sure, though, that they're also asking God for the blessing, not doing it themselves.

BTW #2, for that benediction, the hands are held kind of together, with the fingers spread, but the first two and last two fingers together. Leonard Nimoy, having been raised Orthodox, thus created the Star Trek "Live long and prosper" hand sign.

Since you're new to the forums, I thought I'd mention that you can email and/or personal message me, if you like, rather than post to the bb. Just an option for off-line discussions.

 

[ShellyCW]

Budo, I have complete sympathy for you. We have been bothered numerous times by the Baptists, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses. It got to the point where politely showing non-interest wasn't enough.
My husband bought a "No Preaching" sticker for the front door; it has two figures in suits holding a bible with a red slash through it.

I've been told that if you tell the religion peddlers that you're Catholic they steer clear. Not sure why... :question:

 

[bknarw]

While I'm a Christian, and I understand that it's our duty, somewhat, to witness to others, I personally like to pick who's preaching to me.
So, I've found that the best way to deal with people trying to hammer their beliefs down your throat is to agree with everything they say.
They're so primed to argue, they don't quite know what to do when someone agrees with them!

 

[Penn]

Spreading the Word

My husband bought a "No Preaching" sign and put it on our front door.

Shelly, where can I get one of those stickers? Even if I don't display it all the time, it would come in handy if I spot a couple(they always seem to travel in pairs) of these folks
strolling down towards my house.
I could keep it by the front door, and just as they
begin their schpiel, I could raise it up like on a flagpole real slow-like and watch their eyes follow the sign! Please, I must know!

penncam

 

[ShellyCW]

I inquired to the hubby about the sticker, and he said he got it from www.evolvefish.com.

 

[Voter2002]

Isn't weird that thumpers try to "convert" Jews? Convert them to what??? JC was a Jew, wasn't he???