Does God Hide Himself?
- Thread starter onel0126
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cheezgrits
Thought pirate
Or, maybe we are all god, or the creator and refuse to see that we are all the same, that all of creation is really the creator.
Radiant1
Soul Probe
You might be interested in reading The Holographic Universe by Michel Talbot. Fascinating stuff.
cheezgrits
Thought pirate
Thanks, I'll check it out!
TheLibertonian
New Member
Well, reasonably speaking, yes, because knowledge denies faith. If you know god exist, not in the faith sense of "you believe", but as in "you can prove god exist", then you've completely denied the power of belief and faith in regards to god.
That's been the major theological argument for why a formerly interventionist deity is suddenly not intervening. No more burning bushes or mana from heaven or stones being smote and opening a river.
That's been the major theological argument for why a formerly interventionist deity is suddenly not intervening. No more burning bushes or mana from heaven or stones being smote and opening a river.
PsyOps
Pixelated
If you’re using the term ‘believe’ as it’s used in the New Testament, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what that term actually means.
I can no more prove to you that God exists than you can prove to me black holes or dark matter or parallel universes exist; yet the scientific community has convinced you that they do exist; and you shamelessly take their word for it. It boils down to the fact that you reject the premise of their being a god. It's not my job to prove to you God exists; it's your job to come to that conclusion; or not.
TheLibertonian
New Member
And yet again, that doesn't stop what I was saying; if you had indisputable scientifically verifiable proof God existed, faith would cease to exist. Faith requires belief without proof.
As for black holes and such, I'm not sure that I believe in those either. But thank you for assuming I do because people are just check mark boxes right? Atheist? Must believe in X Y Z. Christian? Must believe in X Y Z.
Or wait no people are incredibly complex and don't actually line up with such simple categorization in real life.
I actually quite admire the zealous and faithful, because I think western society has in most ways completely lost it's zeal. Western society no longer considers zeal to be a good thing, in any form, even in such forms as classical liberalism upon which the United States is built. I think that's why Europeans in particular have such a hard time understanding Islam in the modern world; they simply cannot comprehend true faith.
In fact, let me strongly say I take issue with you saying I "reject the premise that their can be a god". Quite the opposite. There are things out there which may be gods in the sense we tend to think of them, as beings capable of warping the laws of reality. We don't know. They could operate on a level so far above us that we could never know. What I do is reject the idea that the Christian god as codified in the bible exist, because you've put a frame around the deity and that can be proven and disproven. I think if their are gods they are so unknowable, so beyond our comprehension, that we could never even begin to frame them in some way.
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b23hqb
Well-Known Member
if you had indisputable scientifically verifiable proof God existed, faith would cease to exist. Faith requires belief without proof.
Your definition of "faith" lacks any logic or common sense. That chair you are probably sitting on to type, that you can touch, feel, see, absolutely exists. Yet you would not sit in it unless you had belief it would support your weight without collapsing. That jet airliner you walked on, touched, know for a fact that it physically exists, yet you would not get on it if you did not have the belief that it would take off, fly, and land safely.
Those beliefs in absolute scientific proof of existence are there, yet you say faith in them is required no more.
A very small and empty thought process on your part.
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PsyOps
Pixelated
Yet, you’ve made all sorts of assumptions about what compels a person to believe in their God. Unless you do believe, how you even remotely understand that feeling, that thought process, what is REAL internal to a believer?
For accuracy… God (Yahweh) didn’t warp the laws of reality; He created those laws. He created the laws of nature. And they are His laws. What appears to be ‘warped’ to you, is just your lack of understanding of God’s complete order of these laws; I’m certain most of which we’ve never experienced. But we like to confine things into our own understanding, and anything outside of that has to be considered ‘warped’. God would have to operate on a level far above us. Given the complexities of our universe, how could a God create such a thing without having such knowledge? I believe our universe is incomprehensible, in that we will never know the complete details of it; yet we still pursue more knowledge about it. This is the same with God. The same desire that goes into understanding our universe goes into understanding this God.
TheLibertonian
New Member
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith#Christianity
I go with the non-Dawkin approach to faith. I don't believe faith is necessarily blind. I have great respect for theologians. But I do belief faith must include doubt to be well reasoned faith.
And indeed, there are beliefs, but as noted in the thing, it's "beliefs based on reason". The reason I have a belief that the chair will hold me is because I know their are the laws of physics that the chair, and its material, has to obey. I don't know them all by heart, but I know the exist because we can test them and verify them.
If God appeared before everyone on earth tomorrow and proved its excistence before any and all, with no ability to doubt, then the idea of faith would no longer be necessary. That's why we have the phrase "I'll accept this on faith'.
cheezgrits
Thought pirate
What about those of us who did believe at one time and now don't?
And for accuracy? On what basis? Your opinion? Evidence? You can state that as your view, but accurate measured against what metric?
Why do some of you "christians" spend so much energy trying to always convince everyone that you are right and anyone who simply does not fall in line is wrong?
I think some should go back and carefully read Libertonian's posts again.
ProximaCentauri
Member
A 'hidden deity' and a nonexistent one appear very much alike.
littlelady
God bless the USA
Yes, they are alike. Why does the World conduct themselves according to something humans do not know, or cannot see. Self destructing because of different beliefs doesn't even make sense, since it is not tangible. And, this can be carried out exponentially in the way that ethnic groups are acting out, whining, and being improper because they want their way. Is that what Yahweh means? Yes we. Just being facetious, but, seriously, why is religion going to be the reason the World implodes. I don't get, and never will. Live and let live, and peace, y'all.
PsyOps
Pixelated
Oh for cheezgrits sake! I don’t spend any more energy trying to convince ‘everyone’ than you do trying to disprove everything about Christianity. I’m not trying to prove anyone wrong; I’m giving you my perspective on my faith. I can’t convince you of anything. You have to be willing to be convinced. While I’m spending my efforts giving you my perspective, you spend all of your effort lecturing people like me about how wrong I probably am. So, turn that lens back at yourself before you go throwing that crap at me.
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This_person
Well-Known Member
To the naked eye, an oxygen-rich and oxygen-deficient atmosphere appear very much alike. It's what it does to your ability to sustain your life when you breathe that makes all the difference.
TheLibertonian
New Member
I stand by my belief that faith requires doubt. I'm not a theologian but most of the ones I've read are generally of that mindset.
This_person
Well-Known Member
In terms of semantics about whether faith can exist with specific hard facts, I would tend to agree.
I'm not personally convinced God "needs" us to have faith in His existence, but rather faith that Jesus died for our sins....but, that's obviously a completely different discussion.
TheLibertonian
New Member
It is, and it's fair, but on the general scale of 'faith', I'm of the strong personal opinion that knowledge denies faith. Absolute certainty mixed with absolute uncertainty.
But then I also deal with theologians and not protestant grocers-turned-preachers more, so hell if I know what you bunch of freaking heretics get up to in your Germanic squalor.
