Erasing history...

[This_person]

The states 'joined' and made a nation, yes? You don't join something you can't leave.

Why not? Isn't that the point of joining - the expectation you will remain in through thick and thin, whether you get your way, etc., etc.? Isn't it like marriage - Til Death Parts Us?

Or, is it like 21st century marriage - til there's an option we think is better today?

 

[Larry Gude]

Why not? Isn't that the point of joining - the expectation you will remain in through thick and thin, whether you get your way, etc., etc.? Isn't it like marriage - Til Death Parts Us?

Or, is it like 21st century marriage - til there's an option we think is better today?

We differ on what the responsibilities of membership are. If You join my club with the understanding we go to church every Sunday, play by all the rules, don't drink or play rock and roll and then find we go to church on Sundays to play Slayer and drink all the communion wine and then some and make up our own rules, how long are you truly obligate to stay in that club? The South joined a white supremacy group where you could own other people and no one could stop you. It was a core, backbone of their society, biblically based and supported. They felt that that was being rescinded.

 

[Wishbone]

Why not? Isn't that the point of joining - the expectation you will remain in through thick and thin, whether you get your way, etc., etc.? Isn't it like marriage - Til Death Parts Us?

Or, is it like 21st century marriage - til there's an option we think is better today?

Would you enlist for a "life-time?"

Did you ever register under a different party?

 

[Gilligan]

Why not? Isn't that the point of joining - the expectation you will remain in through thick and thin,

You should read up on the history of the ratification process. Some southern states were barely talked in to ratifying the Constitution and did so very reluctantly and with serious reservations. They were more or less assured that "if you find you don't like it, you can always leave". Not 75 years before they went ahead and did just that.

I thought everyone knew that.

 

[Larry Gude]

You should read up on the history of the ratification process. Some southern states were barely talked in to ratifying the Constitution and did so very reluctantly and with serious reservations. They were more or less assured that "if you find you don't like it, you can always leave". Not 75 years before they went ahead and did just that.

I thought everyone knew that.

Southern states? Hell, IIRC Massachusetts didn't wanna join if THOSE people were going to be members and were the FIRST to seriously threaten secession. Maryland has been alternately considering succeeding from itself since day 1. The West from the middle, the east from the middle and the South from the whole damn thing.

 

[Gilligan]

Southern states? Hell, IIRC Massachusetts didn't wanna join if THOSE people were going to be members and were the FIRST to seriously threaten secession. Maryland has been alternately considering succeeding from itself since day 1. The West from the middle, the east from the middle and the South from the whole damn thing.

Oddly enough though..Maryland was one of, if not the only, state where it was known that a "yes" vote was guaranteed going in.

I didn't want to get in to the weeds on it, fascinating subject though it is. My point was simply that the nation was formed in manner that most certainly did allow for secession(s).

 

[Larry Gude]

My point was simply that the nation was formed in manner that most certainly did allow for secession(s).

And that is THE point.

Then, The Palmetto people ####ed EVERYTHING up.

 

[PsyOps]

Why not? Isn't that the point of joining - the expectation you will remain in through thick and thin, whether you get your way, etc., etc.? Isn't it like marriage - Til Death Parts Us?

Or, is it like 21st century marriage - til there's an option we think is better today?

There are instances where divorce is acceptable in God's eyes, you know this.

State's rights. If we found ourselves with a dictator for a president, wouldn't you want your state to secede; at least as a option.

 

[Midnightrider]

Oddly enough though..Maryland was one of, if not the only, state where it was known that a "yes" vote was guaranteed going in.

I didn't want to get in to the weeds on it, fascinating subject though it is. My point was simply that the nation was formed in manner that most certainly did allow for secession(s).

care to show the parts of the constitution that cover states leaving the Union?

I would guess its like in most other cases, the written contract can not be amended with a verbal agreement.

 

[PsyOps]

care to show the parts of the constitution that cover states leaving the Union?

10th Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Care to show in the constitution that forbids states from leaving the union?

 

[Wishbone]

And that is THE point.

Then, The Palmetto people ####ed EVERYTHING up.

They kinda did that to Bar-B-Q too.

 

[Midnightrider]

10th Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Care to show in the constitution that forbids states from leaving the union?

I think that is a pretty big stretch, but that would leave it to the states collectively since they would all have an interest in one leaving.

 

[Larry Gude]

They kinda did that to Bar-B-Q too.

Yet another good reason to not get in the way of secession.

 

[Larry Gude]

I think that is a pretty big stretch, but that would leave it to the states collectively since they would all have an interest in one leaving.

Let me understand here. Do you believe states should not be able to leave?

 

[Midnightrider]

Let me understand here. Do you believe states should not be able to leave?

I am saying that its not in the constitution and the precedent is obvious.

 

[Wishbone]

I am saying that its not in the constitution and the precedent is obvious.

Yep... He's saying once suckered, you're trapped.

 

[Larry Gude]

I am saying that its not in the constitution and the precedent is obvious.

Obvious? Ok, how?

Doesn't the Constitution covering admission imply de-admission? Further, within the Constitution, same part, is the path to sub-divide the states. So, if, say, Western Maryland can, per the Constitution, join West Virginia or Pennsylvania, that is secession of a kind, yes?

 

[Gilligan]

Some good in-depth discussion here.

Interestingly, Madison quite vigorously rejected including any sort of anti-secession verbiage in the drafting of the Constitution.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/is-secession-legal/

 

[Larry Gude]

It's the first freaking thing we ever put on paper.

When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

 

[PsyOps]

I think that is a pretty big stretch, but that would leave it to the states collectively since they would all have an interest in one leaving.

So, you don't really believe in states rights. Is it specifically enumerated in the constitution that states MUST remain in the union?

You're saying it's not in the constitution that states can secede. This is expressly why the 10th was written.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."