Fear?

[Chasey_Lane]

I was very close to death once...

Same here. I was in my early 20s. I knew I was going to black out and I thought "this is it, I'm done!" It was peaceful and quiet. I remember waking up in the ER with several people around me.

However, this is not how everyone "expires." Some deaths are painful and tragic. When my time is up, I hope I make a graceful exit.

 

[PsyOps]

If I had some reassurance that I can play my guitar in the afterlife I wouldn't fear it.

 

[jesj]

So... If I'm wrong and Heaven doesn't exist, what have I lost? If I'm right the non-believers who mock the Lord with their ignorant rants and refusal to accept the Christ in their lives.... loose big time.... cause they become only worm food....

I'll take a stab at an answer. Please note, I am not attacking anyone or anyone's beliefs.

For the first question: if you're wrong and there is no afterlife. What you've lost entirely depends on how you've lived.

If you live such that heaven is a reward for being an overall good person, then you're likely to be an overall good person. Even if there is no heaven, you've lost nothing, and the world has gained from your kindness.

If you live believing that the physical world is completely irrelevant due to heaven being the so much more important, then it is likely you will participate in activities that unnecessarily damage the planet or burden those around you. If there is no heaven, the world you left is worse because of you.

These are not the only two options and are not mutually exclusive. Most believers I've interacted with seem to fall somewhere in between the extremes, with their level of care for this life and the afterlife being dependent upon the exact situation in question.


As for the second question: what if the non-believers are wrong. There are again two parts.

First, if the non-believer, in thinking that this world is all there is, chooses to treat it well, then the world benefits from his or her actions. If there is a heaven, the soul will be judged. If it is judged on actions, there should be no problem. If it is judged on faith, then even someone who chose to be a good person will be punished.

However, if the non-believer chooses to treat the world and those in it poorly simply because when he or she is dead, it won't matter, the result is fairly simple. By either judgement basis, acts or faith, the soul would be condemned.

There is one significant wrinkle in all this, though. I used the word non-believer, but a more accurate term would be incorrect-believer. If faith is the basis for judgement, even a Christian would be condemned when they reach the gates of Valhalla. This is essentially Pascal's wager.


The TLDR version is that we should treat the world and those in it well, act as though there is no afterlife, and believe whatever makes you a happier, kinder person.

 

[Gilligan]

Same here. I was in my early 20s. I knew I was going to black out and I thought "this is it, I'm done!" It was peaceful and quiet. I remember waking up in the ER with several people around me.

However, this is not how everyone "expires." Some deaths are painful and tragic. When my time is up, I hope I make a graceful exit.

But that's what I thought was the odd part. I had just fallen almost 30 feet and that landing (on my head..LOL) broke a list of bones and other things so long that I'll just leave it at that. Despite that...the realization that I had probably just "bought the farm" was a very calm one. I'll never forget the feeling. And I wasn't far off...it was a good 24 hours in ICU before my family was informed that I was probably going to make it. But that part I have no direct memory of...nearly two weeks of ICU habitation are just gone from memory, barely a blur. I've only got immediate family to recount those days to me. But I sure remember what I was feeling lying there in a heap after the fall......as if it was just yesterday. Weird.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

I'll take a stab at an answer. Please note, I am not attacking anyone or anyone's beliefs.

For the first question: if you're wrong and there is no afterlife. What you've lost entirely depends on how you've lived.

If you live such that heaven is a reward for being an overall good person, then you're likely to be an overall good person. Even if there is no heaven, you've lost nothing, and the world has gained from your kindness.

If you live believing that the physical world is completely irrelevant due to heaven being the so much more important, then it is likely you will participate in activities that unnecessarily damage the planet or burden those around you. If there is no heaven, the world you left is worse because of you.

These are not the only two options and are not mutually exclusive. Most believers I've interacted with seem to fall somewhere in between the extremes, with their level of care for this life and the afterlife being dependent upon the exact situation in question.


As for the second question: what if the non-believers are wrong. There are again two parts.

First, if the non-believer, in thinking that this world is all there is, chooses to treat it well, then the world benefits from his or her actions. If there is a heaven, the soul will be judged. If it is judged on actions, there should be no problem. If it is judged on faith, then even someone who chose to be a good person will be punished.

However, if the non-believer chooses to treat the world and those in it poorly simply because when he or she is dead, it won't matter, the result is fairly simple. By either judgement basis, acts or faith, the soul would be condemned.

There is one significant wrinkle in all this, though. I used the word non-believer, but a more accurate term would be incorrect-believer. If faith is the basis for judgement, even a Christian would be condemned when they reach the gates of Valhalla. This is essentially Pascal's wager.


The TLDR version is that we should treat the world and those in it well, act as though there is no afterlife, and believe whatever makes you a happier, kinder person.

Nice Post

 

[ProximaCentauri]

There are so many great posts in this chain. I was tempted to quote them all and say thanks for posting them.....

Your posting Proxima bothered me all day. If you are not a christian.... you are lucky that you were sent back so that you could choose to get it right. The only way to heaven is faith in Jesus. If you are a christian.... I can't imagine why you would have come back.

HC, all I can say is I'm sorry it bothered you and I hope you get well if that is your desire. Modern medicine and a brilliant surgeon brought me back to life. Since, I look at life, let's just say, differently than I did. We can all learn from each other. But I don't expect us to ever reach common ground on the difference between reality and religion (or faith). But I think we can agree that it's a good thing to be kind.

 

[vraiblonde]

The TLDR version is that we should treat the world and those in it well, act as though there is no afterlife, and believe whatever makes you a happier, kinder person.

In my belief system, this life is all I get so it needs to be the best I can make it. I don't have the luxury of forever; I have 70+- years to make my life count, and I'm okay with that. Not like I'm some saint but even if I got hit by a bus tomorrow, I'd be okay with the life I've had being all I got.

 

[Radiant1]

HC, all I can say is I'm sorry it bothered you and I hope you get well if that is your desire. Modern medicine and a brilliant surgeon brought me back to life. Since, I look at life, let's just say, differently than I did. We can all learn from each other. But I don't expect us to ever reach common ground on the difference between reality and religion (or faith). But I think we can agree that it's a good thing to be kind.

That was a backhanded insult. If it's a good thing to be kind, then be kind and don't imply that those with faith and/or religion do not live in or experience reality.

Although I don't have the time or wherewithal for it at the moment, we probably should have a discussion on reality and whether it's absolute or relative to each person who exists.

I'm trying hard to like and respect you, but comments like that make it a little bit harder to, as you say, "learn from each other".

 

[hotcoffee]

HC, all I can say is I'm sorry it bothered you and I hope you get well if that is your desire. Modern medicine and a brilliant surgeon brought me back to life. Since, I look at life, let's just say, differently than I did. We can all learn from each other. But I don't expect us to ever reach common ground on the difference between reality and religion (or faith). But I think we can agree that it's a good thing to be kind.

In my belief system, this life is all I get so it needs to be the best I can make it. I don't have the luxury of forever; I have 70+- years to make my life count, and I'm okay with that. Not like I'm some saint but even if I got hit by a bus tomorrow, I'd be okay with the life I've had being all I got.

Proxima.... it only bothered me all day because I really wanted to answer it and couldn't get to my computer.

This is a really great discussion.... I'm not afraid of death because I know I'm not going to hell. Jesus promised that my faith in Him will save me from going to hell. Like someone else said.... I would be afraid if I saw a freight train heading right at me.... because I'd be thinking "Oh this is really going to leave a mark!" But the death itself.... I'm not afraid of what comes next because I know it will be heaven.

It worries me that good people who are not Christians will continue to be good people without Faith in the Lord [not faith in religion] will miss Heaven. To put it in "reality" terms....If you are going to a sold out concert you should get a ticket so you can get into the concert. If you wait til you get to the door [your last breath] there may not be any scalpers to get a ticket from or the ticket you buy may be a fake and you can't get in.

Vrai... A friend of mine was amazed when I said "I'm happy with my life because it got me to this minute and everything has worked out great." I think that's what you just wrote. I hope that everyone gets to that point. We're lucky to be happy with our lives.

If the doctors can heal me.... I'm good with that and my family and friends will be happy with that. If they can't .... well I'm not afraid of death and I've been looking forward to seeing all those who went before me.



Oh and there will be guitars in Heaven....

PS.... Hell is the opposite of Heaven.... I've seen Hell on Earth and I really don't want to be there for eternity.... I've tasted Heaven on Earth.... I'm married to my best friend, I have terrific children and grandchildren, I have great friends [real and online] and I have SOMD Online with it's great discussions.... I'm a very happy person....

 

[FollowTheMoney]

Such as shame vrai put me on ignore.... she's gonna miss this post.

Having laid on a gurney moments before being rolled into an operating room with death inches from my door, the reasons not matters, and looking at that plain white ceiling.....

I was raised and deeply steeped in religion as a child and into adulthood, and at that moment, I realized, with my family in the waiting room, I was alone. All by myself with my thoughts. And as mentioned, "so this is what it is to die?" No flashbacks, no oh poop moments, just a calm kinda... eh. No fear, just calm thoughts, "The last things I'm going to see is a hospital's
white ceiling?"

Instead of calling for a god to accept me into a heaven, absolve me of whatever sins I may have committed against his teachings, I was thinking that I wished my family could be
with me as I was wheeled into that room. My family brought me peace, not a god.

So hotcoffee, if you can plan your exit, in addition to having your god, have as much family around you as possible. For with me, the most depressing part of nearly dieing, was mine
not being beside me when death came a knocking.

In addition.... after ICU, continued healing at home, and after fully healed, boy did my life view change. Now, even more, my family, and doing things with and for them, is much more
paramount.

Peace

 

[CleanTheSlateInSMC]

I fear death.

Congratulations! You must be sane!

Everyone will eventually die, and most humans deal with this fact by convincing themselves that they (or others) will meet St. Peter, or be greeted by 72 virgins, or be re-united with relatives, live forever in paradise, etc., when they die.

Personally, I find those who claim to not fear death BECAUSE they believe in these pleasant notions to be truly scary. These are people who drown their own children, drink poisoned Kool-Aid, reject life-saving medical care, and crash planes into buildings.

 

[kwillia]

Personally, I find those who claim to not fear death BECAUSE they believe in these pleasant notions to be truly scary. These are people who drown their own children, drink poisoned Kool-Aid, reject life-saving medical care, and crash planes into buildings.

Well I'm not a religious person, but some of the nicest, smartest, happiest people I know have faith in their religion. They don't scare me one bit.

 

[CleanTheSlateInSMC]

Well I'm not a religious person, but some of the nicest, smartest, happiest people I know have faith in their religion. They don't scare me one bit.

I wouldn't lump ALL religious people into the scary category; just the ones who don't fear death because they think they are simply traveling to another place where life is idyllic. Fear of death is a basic human defense mechanism that keeps the species alive.

 

[hotcoffee]

I wouldn't lump ALL religious people into the scary category; just the ones who don't fear death because they think they are simply traveling to another place where life is idyllic. Fear of death is a basic human defense mechanism that keeps the species alive.

Actually.... I don't fear death at all. I do fear getting hurt.... I do fear hurting others. I am fighting terminal cancer. I don't want to hurt the ones I love. I am happy there is a Heaven to look forward to. It's not simple knowing that I will be leaving them but the knowledge that I will see them again soon.... that's comforting.... for me and for them.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Proxima.... it only bothered me all day because I really wanted to answer it and couldn't get to my computer.

This is a really great discussion.... I'm not afraid of death because I know I'm not going to hell. Jesus promised that my faith in Him will save me from going to hell. Like someone else said.... I would be afraid if I saw a freight train heading right at me.... because I'd be thinking "Oh this is really going to leave a mark!" But the death itself.... I'm not afraid of what comes next because I know it will be heaven.

It worries me that good people who are not Christians will continue to be good people without Faith in the Lord [not faith in religion] will miss Heaven.

HC, I have no doubt your compassion for others who may be missing out on heaven is genuine. Heaven my exist, and if it does I'm sure you'll be there. But it's inconsistent with reason, at least my reasoning anyway. So as I've hinted at before, I don't think it's worth discussing between the two of us. I appreciate your thoughts and will just live it at that. I believe that two people can have sincere regard for each other even though their belief systems may be vastly different.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

That was a backhanded insult. If it's a good thing to be kind, then be kind and don't imply that those with faith and/or religion do not live in or experience reality.

Although I don't have the time or wherewithal for it at the moment, we probably should have a discussion on reality and whether it's absolute or relative to each person who exists.

I'm trying hard to like and respect you, but comments like that make it a little bit harder to, as you say, "learn from each other".

Rad1, I'll take your comment to heart if you'll admit to doing the same? I'm happy to have more discussion with you on "reality" or other topics. And I'll try my best to avoid condescension, belittling, or backhanded insults if you'll reciprocate. Clean slate?

 

[PsyOps]

I wouldn't lump ALL religious people into the scary category; just the ones who don't fear death because they think they are simply traveling to another place where life is idyllic. Fear of death is a basic human defense mechanism that keeps the species alive.

Why would it be scary to know that someone doesn't fear death because they know they will be in paradise on the other side? What's scary about that?

 

[hotcoffee]

Hebrews 2:15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.​

These are the passages that allow me freedom from the fear of death.

It's not religion that gives me hope.... I'm not a religious person.... I'm a faithful follower.

Sure the Bible was put together by people... and there are other books that were not included in the Bible.... but these are enough to give me faith....

 

[PsyOps]

HC, I have no doubt your compassion for others who may be missing out on heaven is genuine. Heaven my exist, and if it does I'm sure you'll be there. But it's inconsistent with reason, at least my reasoning anyway. So as I've hinted at before, I don't think it's worth discussing between the two of us. I appreciate your thoughts and will just live it at that. I believe that two people can have sincere regard for each other even though their belief systems may be vastly different.

How is believing there is another realm of life beyond this physical one inconsistent with reason? Why limit your thinking this has to be it?

 

[hotcoffee]

Why would it be scary to know that someone doesn't fear death because they know they will be in paradise on the other side? What's scary about that?

I think the reference is to those who would sacrifice their lives for their "god". I think the reference is to those who would fly a plane into a building killing thousands to get to their reward.

That's why Matthew 10:28 means so much to me.

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.​