Fear?

[ProximaCentauri]

How is believing there is another realm of life beyond this physical one inconsistent with reason? Why limit your thinking this has to be it?

You and I have had some previous exchanges where I touched on some of my thinking and I'd like to do more of that but maybe it's appropriate to start another thread. For now I'll just leave you with this quote from Stephen Hawking that is also somewhat appropriate to discussions in this thread...

“When people ask me if a god created the universe, I tell them that the question itself makes no sense. Time didn’t exist before the big bang, so there is no time for god to make the universe in. It’s like asking directions to the edge of the earth; The Earth is a sphere; it doesn’t have an edge; so looking for it is a futile exercise. We are each free to believe what we want, and it’s my view that the simplest explanation is; there is no god. No one created our universe, and no one directs our fate. This leads me to a profound realization; There is probably no heaven, and no afterlife either. We have this one life to appreciate the grand design of the universe, and for that I am extremely grateful.”

 

[PsyOps]

The ‘big bang’ is a theory that assumes time began then and there was nothing occurring before that. Something had to be occurring before that in order for THAT to occur in the first place. You can’t have an event occur out of nothing. There are always prior events; which would require time. There are no facts to refute this nor support it. Hawking (as is with you) choose to believe the science they have established. I can always ask “what came before that?”

 

[jesj]

I can always ask “what came before that?”

This is well outside the realm of this thread, but while you can always ask what came before, it is not always a sensible question.

Using location as an analogy, for an event to occur, it must occur in a place. If the big bang theory is correct, all of space-time came into being at one specific moment. For there to be a prior event, there would have had to have been a prior location. But, there was no prior location. The entire universe - all of the locations - were/are within the universe. Everything was/is from that initial singularity. There was no such thing as a "where" from which to view the creation of the universe.

Secondly, you can have an event occur "out of nothing". It happens all the time. Particles and anti-particles are popping into existence and annihilating each other everywhere at all times. We don't notice because there is no net energy change - the energy expended when the particles are destroyed is exactly the same as when they are created. Scaling that up, if the universe popped out of nothing, we'd expect that if we add up all the energy of the universe we'd need to get a total of zero, which, as far as we can tell, is what we get.

 

[PsyOps]

This is well outside the realm of this thread, but while you can always ask what came before, it is not always a sensible question.

I didn't bring it up; I was responding to Proxima bringing it up. Almost every thread does this - one discussion leads to another and gets off topic.

 

[PsyOps]

Using location as an analogy, for an event to occur, it must occur in a place. If the big bang theory is correct, all of space-time came into being at one specific moment. For there to be a prior event, there would have had to have been a prior location. But, there was no prior location. The entire universe - all of the locations - were/are within the universe. Everything was/is from that initial singularity. There was no such thing as a "where" from which to view the creation of the universe.

Secondly, you can have an event occur "out of nothing". It happens all the time. Particles and anti-particles are popping into existence and annihilating each other everywhere at all times. We don't notice because there is no net energy change - the energy expended when the particles are destroyed is exactly the same as when they are created.

I can’t subscribe to the BELIEF that events can occur without something prior to it occurring. The big bang was an alleged mass of stuff somewhere in space. That mass didn’t just get there on its own and believing it did is nothing more than a BELIEF. This is what I love about theoretical science… it relies on a system of BELIEFS in math, observations, and think tanks to come to conclusions that can’t really be proven with overwhelming proof; and yet you accept it as proof.

Scaling that up, if the universe popped out of nothing, we'd expect that if we add up all the energy of the universe we'd need to get a total of zero, which, as far as we can tell, is what we get.

What the heck? This demands that our entire existence – the universe as a whole – is nothing more than a fantasy. Congratulations! You just defined God in the mind of an atheist.

 

[vraiblonde]

I can always ask “what came before that?”

You can also ask what came before God. If he is eternal, what was he doing before he created heaven and earth? There was no ESPN and he had no one to play cards with. So God had been sitting around forever - literally forever - like forever forever - doing...what?

You believe in God, and that's fine, but you can hardly blame someone for not believing.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

You can also ask what came before God. If he is eternal, what was he doing before he created heaven and earth? There was no ESPN and he had no one to play cards with. So God had been sitting around forever - literally forever - like forever forever - doing...what?

You believe in God, and that's fine, but you can hardly blame someone for not believing.

No ESPN!? Haha! But he could have been playing solitaire. A synopsis of history...

1. God justs exists. Literally forever, and for no reason.
2. God for whatever the reason (maybe he's tired of no sports and no ESPN?)decides to create stuff after existing, well you know, literally forever.
3. God touches off the Big Bang, then does nothing for 10 Billion years.
4. God creates Earth, then does nothing for 4 Billion years.
5. God creates dinosaurs.
6. God kills dinosaurs.
7. God creates man in his "image", then does nothing for 200,000 years.
8. God then meddles wildly in the affairs of a tiny iron-age tribe of hebrews for roughly 1500 years.
9. God creates a son (who is also him?), kills self, rises from dead.
10. God ceases all manifestations and contact with humanity for the next 2000 years, leaving only an arbitrarily cobbled together collection of metaphorical and contradictory stories as proof of his existence.

Seems reasonable to me.

 

[Radiant1]

Or, maybe God is not an old man in the sky or in any way, shape or form human, but rather Something Else -- a singular point or energy density perhaps? God describes Himself as "I AM", which implies you can't peg Him into any one thing or description. In other words, He is what He is and you can't fully grasp Him. In addition, God resides (so to speak) in eternity. Eternity is NOT infinity (Vrai pay attention) but rather is described as No Place and No Time. Nothing had to come before God anymore than nothing had to come before the Big Bang. Hell, maybe the two are correlated, eh?

Faith and science are not necessarily a dichotomy. It just takes mature, non-biased thinking -- or at the very least an admission that we don't really know everything and will continually ask questions and seek answers -- to see that they aren't. Science will always ask the question "how", and faith will always ask the question "why". Do those two questions not go hand-in-hand?

 

[CleanTheSlateInSMC]

God describes Himself as "I AM", which implies you can't peg Him into any one thing or description.

According to who?

 

[Radiant1]

According to who?

To whomever was inspired to write the book of Exodus. This would be no different than saying theory of natural selection according to "On the Origin of Species".

 

[CleanTheSlateInSMC]

To whomever was inspired to write the book of Exodus. This would be no different than saying theory of natural selection according to "On the Origin of Species".

"On the Origin of Species" was written by scientist Charles Darwin in 1859. The book of "Exodus" has been attributed to Moses, written 3,500 years ago, where Moses claimed that God spoke to him and gave him the 10 commandments. Darwin's book is based on scientific theory, and Exodus is an inspirational storybook full of fantastical tales.

 

[Radiant1]

"On the Origin of Species" was written by scientist Charles Darwin in 1859. The book of "Exodus" has been attributed to Moses, written 3,500 years ago, where Moses claimed that God spoke to him and gave him the 10 commandments. Darwin's book is based on scientific theory, and Exodus is an inspirational storybook full of fantastical tales.

That's one opinion. Some others may be of the opinion that evolution is based on such extreme randomness as to be impossible odds and therefore considered just as much a miracle as a virgin birth. Or, some may be of the opinion that since some scientific theories have been debunked or superseded (Einstein's static universe as an example), that perhaps people shouldn't put so much faith in the theory of the day. But, so what and who really cares?

You apparently still desperately cling to a dichotomy between faith and science. As I said, it takes a mature, non-biased thinking to see that a dichotomy doesn't by necessity have to exist -- unless one feels threatened somehow.

 

[CleanTheSlateInSMC]

That's one opinion. Some others may be of the opinion that evolution is based on such extreme randomness as to be impossible odds and therefore considered just as much a miracle as a virgin birth. Or, some may be of the opinion that since some scientific theories have been debunked or superseded (Einstein's static universe as an example), that perhaps people shouldn't put so much faith in the theory of the day. But, so what and who really cares?

You apparently still desperately cling to a dichotomy between faith and science. As I said, it takes a mature, non-biased thinking to see that a dichotomy doesn't by necessity have to exist -- unless one feels threatened somehow.

Not every anonymous forum poster can be as sophisticated a thinker as you consider yourself.

Religion is a threat to all humanity. Since it's inception, people are killed, enslaved, sexually assaulted, and tortured every day in the name of God, Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, etc..

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Or, maybe God is not an old man in the sky or in any way, shape or form human, but rather Something Else -- a singular point or energy density perhaps? God describes Himself as "I AM", which implies you can't peg Him into any one thing or description. In other words, He is what He is and you can't fully grasp Him. In addition, God resides (so to speak) in eternity. Eternity is NOT infinity (Vrai pay attention) but rather is described as No Place and No Time. Nothing had to come before God anymore than nothing had to come before the Big Bang. Hell, maybe the two are correlated, eh?

Faith and science are not necessarily a dichotomy. It just takes mature, non-biased thinking -- or at the very least an admission that we don't really know everything and will continually ask questions and seek answers -- to see that they aren't. Science will always ask the question "how", and faith will always ask the question "why". Do those two questions not go hand-in-hand?

I like the idea that "God" could be a singular point of energy. And he/she/it doesn't even need to reside in our universe, a parallel universe perhaps? Correlated with the Big Bang shows imaginative thinking on your part, but how so? If he was the singularity that the universe started from, that would make him part and parcel with all matter and energy (and dark matter) in the universe, including stars, black holes, planets, us...kind of a cool way to look at it I admit, but could also be just mental masturbation on our part.

I have to beg to differ with you regarding faith and science's compatibility. I don't believe they are based on a number of reasons not the least of which is the Bible's errant passages with respect to scientific fact. And "how and why" are questions both answered by science, the "how" first and then the "why". Einstein's general theory of relativity is still holding up quite well, btw, and answers the "why" regarding why gravity acts the way it does due to the interaction of space and time.

"Gravity" is due to a warping the fabric of space-time. You are not being pulled down into your chair due to the "pull" of earth's gravity. You are being pushed into it by the space-time interaction. Light would always remain in a straight vector if general relativity were incorrect. But, measurements of starlight during solar eclipses shows not only that light bends, but that Einstein's equation of general relativity describes exactly the magnitude of the angular displacement.

We know from Hubble telescope data, the universe contains roughly 400 Billion Galaxies, in other words over 50 galaxies for every human on earth. Our galaxy would require 100,000 years to traverse if one could travel at the speed of light. So it appears god created a grand stage for such a small life-form.

While there is much left to be learned about the universe, there is much that already has been learned. And all the gods contemplated by man, are finding themselves confined to an ever decreasing pocket of scientific ignorance.

 

[hotcoffee]

"On the Origin of Species" was written by scientist Charles Darwin in 1859. The book of "Exodus" has been attributed to Moses, written 3,500 years ago, where Moses claimed that God spoke to him and gave him the 10 commandments. Darwin's book is based on scientific theory, and Exodus is an inspirational storybook full of fantastical tales.

So.... you are afraid of death?

 

[vraiblonde]

Religion is a threat to all humanity. Since it's inception, people are killed, enslaved, sexually assaulted, and tortured every day in the name of God, Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, etc..

And you don't think that would happen absent religion?

 

[Radiant1]

Not every anonymous forum poster can be as sophisticated a thinker as you consider yourself.

Religion is a threat to all humanity. Since it's inception, people are killed, enslaved, sexually assaulted, and tortured every day in the name of God, Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, etc..

Well, that's one opinion. Some may be of the opinion that more have suffered and died in the name of Atheism (Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Min, Tito, Kim Sung, etc) in the 20th century alone and therefore that is more of a threat to humanity than faith. But, so what?

And yes, at this point I do consider myself a more sophisticated thinker than you because you're spouting the same old drivel with no hint of engaging conversation. You're boring me.

I like the idea that "God" could be a singular point of energy. And he/she/it doesn't even need to reside in our universe, a parallel universe perhaps? Correlated with the Big Bang shows imaginative thinking on your part, but how so? If he was the singularity that the universe started from, that would make him part and parcel with all matter and energy (and dark matter) in the universe, including stars, black holes, planets, us...kind of a cool way to look at it I admit, but could also be just mental masturbation on our part.

Maybe, maybe not. :shrug:

My point is that those with faith as well as those without, should stop thinking of God in the typical linear or anthropomorphic manner.

I have to beg to differ with you regarding faith and science's compatibility. I don't believe they are based on a number of reasons not the least of which is the Bible's errant passages with respect to scientific fact.

If the Bible was touted as a science book you'd have a point, but it's not so you don't.

And "how and why" are questions both answered by science, the "how" first and then the "why".

I can only accept that if and when science gives us an explanation for the purpose of existence. Until then, it sucks at the why part.

Einstein's general theory of relativity is still holding up quite well, btw, and answers the "why" regarding why gravity acts the way it does due to the interaction of space and time.

"Gravity" is due to a warping the fabric of space-time. You are not being pulled down into your chair due to the "pull" of earth's gravity. You are being pushed into it by the space-time interaction. Light would always remain in a straight vector if general relativity were incorrect. But, measurements of starlight during solar eclipses shows not only that light bends, but that Einstein's equation of general relativity describes exactly the magnitude of the angular displacement.

Einstein aside, my point was that scientific theories have been debunked. Are you denying that's the case?

We know from Hubble telescope data, the universe contains roughly 400 Billion Galaxies, in other words over 50 galaxies for every human on earth. Our galaxy would require 100,000 years to traverse if one could travel at the speed of light. So it appears god created a grand stage for such a small life-form.

According to science, one burst of energy and billions of random chances created a grand stage for such a small life form. Is that so different than saying God created a grand stage for such a small life form? Regardless of your answer, I have no problem with that. Do you? Man, that God Creator of the Universe Singular Point of Energy Thing Whatever the Hell It Is is fascinating, no?

While there is much left to be learned about the universe, there is much that already has been learned. And all the gods contemplated by man, are finding themselves confined to an ever decreasing pocket of scientific ignorance.

I will take this opportunity to tell you that your previous synopsis of history had quite a few holes and showed your lack of theological understanding. With that in mind, scientific ignorance or spiritual ignorance doesn't much matter, they're two sides to the same coin.




Some things I'd like for you to answer for me, Proxima, because I'm truly curious as to your answers, and by all means take some time to think about them if you have to. Since pre-history mankind has had faith in something that it calls "god", i.e. something other than mankind itself and an unseen world if you will. What makes you think that suddenly in the last couple centuries mankind knows better and is so much more enlightened than men in the previous, say, 1.8 million years? And, if the majority of mankind has faith of some sort, then does that not make existence of faith itself a concrete reality? And, what do you think of the scientists who also have faith? Those very same scientists who give you those theories you rely so heavily on for your world view?

 

[CleanTheSlateInSMC]

Well, that's one opinion. Some may be of the opinion that more have suffered and died in the name of Atheism (Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Min, Tito, Kim Sung, etc) in the 20th century alone and therefore that is more of a threat to humanity than faith. But, so what?

And yes, at this point I do consider myself a more sophisticated thinker than you because you're spouting the same old drivel with no hint of engaging conversation. You're boring me. QUOTE]

...and yours are original thoughts? Spare me the self-righteous drivel.

Is it your opinion that atrocities committed by someone who doesn't believe in a god are committed "in the name of Atheism" (I notice you capitalized the word like a proper noun), or do you distance yourself from the opinion by attributing the it to the anonymous "some?" Atheism is not a religion. I would imagine most Christians and Muslims who commit murder (and the prisons are full of them) did not commit their crimes in the name of God or Allah, but the ones who bomb abortion clinics are a different story. Their crime is motivated by the warped belief that they're serving their god.

 

[PsyOps]

Not every anonymous forum poster can be as sophisticated a thinker as you consider yourself.

Religion is a threat to all humanity. Since it's inception, people are killed, enslaved, sexually assaulted, and tortured every day in the name of God, Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, etc..

In the name of Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot, Castro, Chavez, Fascism, Communism...

Give me a break!

 

[Radiant1]

Well, that's one opinion. Some may be of the opinion that more have suffered and died in the name of Atheism (Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Min, Tito, Kim Sung, etc) in the 20th century alone and therefore that is more of a threat to humanity than faith. But, so what?

And yes, at this point I do consider myself a more sophisticated thinker than you because you're spouting the same old drivel with no hint of engaging conversation. You're boring me.

...and yours are original thoughts? Spare me the self-righteous drivel.

Am I being self-righteous or am I just stating a truth?

Yes, they are my original thoughts. It's possible someone somewhere else has thought the same, but I've not heard or read about it. If you are aware of such, by all means inform me so I can inquire and delve into this further with someone who's more interested in discussing it instead of someone who wants to spout the typical anti-blah-blah tripe.

Is it your opinion that atrocities committed by someone who doesn't believe in a god are committed "in the name of Atheism" (I notice you capitalized the word like a proper noun), or do you distance yourself from the opinion by attributing the it to the anonymous "some?" Atheism is not a religion. I would imagine most Christians and Muslims who commit murder (and the prisons are full of them) did not commit their crimes in the name of God or Allah, but the ones who bomb abortion clinics are a different story. Their crime is motivated by the warped belief that they're serving their god.

You seem to hold all of those with faith responsible for any one given theistic world view that has committed atrocities, but yet do not want me to hold all of those who are Atheists responsible for any one given non-theistic world view that has committed atrocities. Why the inconsistency on your part? Are you incapable of acknowledging that Atheists have and continue to commit atrocities as to be a threat to humanity? After all, they have killed in the name of their world view just as any person of faith has.