For all of those in Southern Md that have no clue how to get through a crossover

[Goldenhawk]

What does this even mean? I need more of an explanation because this does not only make no sense... it also has no bearing on the conversation at hand.

You have already stated that it's okay to cross to the left of oncoming traffic at a signal-controlled-intersection. Given this, you already have allowed that "driving on the right side" is not appropriate 100% of the time. Therefore, you personally drive to the left multiple times a day.

This point has already been made above more than a few times in this discussion by several other people.

A median crossover is just another intersection, but without a signal and usually without lines marking where to stay. Notably, quite a few controlled intersections do NOT have lines indicating where to cross, but everyone still stays to the left in those controlled intersections even without lines to so instruct them. Therefore, for many people (other than you obviously) there is a habit pattern and an expectation that staying to the left of an opposing vehicle is the right way to drive in an intersection, whether or not a traffic signal exists. I get it, you don't agree. But you should recognize that there is precedent for driving "on the left" that you encounter every single day.

This will probably blow your mind:

NCDOT: Diverging Diamond Interchanges

N.C. Department of Transportation's information about why diverging diamond interchanges on highways help safely move motorists in high traffic areas

www.ncdot.gov

In these intersections, you MUST drive on the left hand side of the road for a few hundred feet. I've been through them; they work great but can be even more confusing than traffic circles until you get used to them.

 

[Goldenhawk]

Agreed. My issues come when the discussions are held to the point where, even in the face of literature that back up what you are saying, people still refuse to acknowledge that they may be wrong like it is some kind of scarlet letter.

I've changed my mind quickly when presented with data or law showing I'm wrong. I'll cite a couple instances on these forums, specifically related to traffic laws.

Much to my personal embarrassment in retrospect, once I got out of my car and chewed out a driver who blocked the shoulder and wouldn't let me pass him coming north on Rt 5 approaching Great Mills. I firmly believed it was allowed by law, and he was keeping me from getting my kids to football in time. In retrospect I was wrong, very wrong. I learned why it was a bad idea when my wife's car was hit by someone else doing it. About a year later, I also discovered the truth about the law when on this very forum the argument came up, and in my search for "chapter and verse" why it was right, I discovered that it was in fact forbidden by state law. I promptly changed my tune and now try to help others understand the actual facts of the law in Maryland.

Same thing with passing on the shoulder, which was already legal in some other states. Until the law was changed in 2017, I was wrong in asserting it was allowable in Maryland, and when I found I was wrong, I admitted it and changed what I tell others. And I had to change my tune again when it became legal in 2017; now I chime in as needed to spread the news that it is in fact legal now.

So I'd be happy to change my mind as soon as you can demonstrate why I'm wrong with something other than your personal opinion.

 

[MiddleGround]

You have already stated that it's okay to cross to the left of oncoming traffic at a signal-controlled-intersection.

Huh? Where did I ever say this? Why would anyone go head on into oncoming traffic.... on purpose??

Given this, you already have allowed that "driving on the right side" is not appropriate 100% of the time. Therefore, you personally drive to the left multiple times a day.

This point has already been made above more than a few times in this discussion by several other people.

See above response...

A median crossover is just another intersection...

No. A median is a median. It is not an intersection.

If the county was smart enough to paint a solid yellow line down the middle of the median... would you still be on the left side? (Which..by the way... then places you head-on with traffic coming from across the road)

This is far from rocket science and solely in the common sense category. I just do not see how you can think to dispute this

 

[MiddleGround]

So I'd be happy to change my mind as soon as you can demonstrate why I'm wrong with something other than your personal opinion.

Sure! as soon as you answer my request from pages ago for a source for your 'opinion'

EDIT: I'll man up. Here ya' go!

https://www.wmbfnews.com/story/3681...roper-way-to-turn-left-at-a-median-crossover/

 

[Goldenhawk]

Sure! as soon as you answer my request from pages ago for a source for your 'opinion'

EDIT: I'll man up. Here ya' go!

https://www.wmbfnews.com/story/3681...roper-way-to-turn-left-at-a-median-crossover/

Thanks for sharing how it should be done in South Carolina, but that is irrelevant to the law in Maryland.

 

[MiddleGround]

Thanks for sharing how it should be done in South Carolina, but that is irrelevant to the law in Maryland.

I tried to get as close to the NORTH CAROLINA example that you referenced above

 

[Goldenhawk]

Sure! as soon as you answer my request from pages ago for a source for your 'opinion'

Thanks for the snark. You're seeming rather defensive and angry here.

I think I've extensively sourced my "opinion," with plenty of quotes from the Maryland legal code, Maryland Driver's Handbook, multiple websites related to Maryland driving code and practices, and so forth. I trust you'll actually visit those websites and read up. Until you do, I think further discussion with you seems to be fruitless.

 

[glhs837]

IIRC, we have searched the MD code, chapter and verse, and it's simply not there.

 

[MiddleGround]

Thanks for the snark. You're seeming rather defensive and angry here.

Haha... Snark response to snark and called out for snark. Can't make this stuff up!

I think I've extensively sourced my "opinion," with plenty of quotes from the Maryland legal code, Maryland Driver's Handbook, multiple websites related to Maryland driving code and practices, and so forth.

Ummmm..... where exactly did you post up the examples from laws/handbooks of Maryland drivers entering medians on the left being the law? I missed those....

Like I said many times in the past.... ANYTHING to not have to admit being just plain wrong!

 

[Goldenhawk]

It's worth noting that our legal system is fundamentally founded on the principle that all things are permitted except when explicitly prohibited. Our law is never written such that you can only do what is specifically allowed; that is how the law works in dictatorial states. But in America and most democracies, things are understood to be allowed unless the law forbids them.

Nulla poena sine lege - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The MD transportation law does state that traffic control devices (which explicitly includes painted lines and signs) must be followed. It does not, however, specify how a crossover must be used.

With this in mind, except in cases where there are lines or signs or traffic lights or curbs, it is factually incorrect to use the words "right" or "wrong" in reference to a particular (preferred) methodology. One may pontificate endlessly about "better", and such a dialog may be very useful, but calling someone else "wrong" is evidence that legal principles and the specifics of the applicable laws are not understood by the speaker.

With this background, it is unsurprising why the police do not write tickets for things some people are convinced are "wrong". The police cannot charge someone with a violation where no law exists. I'm sure that's disappointing to some people, but it's how our legal system works, and we should all be thankful that's the case, even when we're frustrated that "there oughta be a law" in some instance.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

Apparently in Texas how you are supposed to do a crossover depends on the width of the median.

https://texashillcountry.com/texas-forgotten-traffic-laws/

 

[Goldenhawk]

Apparently in Texas how you are supposed to do a crossover depends on the width of the median.

That makes perfect sense. Great find!

I do notice that in MD, wherever the crossover is wider than a couple vehicle lengths, there is a solid yellow line painted in its middle, and usually stop bars at each end. By law a yellow line must be kept to the vehicle's left side, so this is an unambigous "traffic control device" indicating the driver must remain to the right side on those wider median crossings. For example, in Charlotte Hall at the Mechanicsville Rd intersection, this crossover:

But just a couple hundred yards north at Lockes Hill Rd, a narrower crossover has no line markings.

 

[SamSpade]

Apparently in Texas how you are supposed to do a crossover depends on the width of the median.

https://texashillcountry.com/texas-forgotten-traffic-laws/

Yes! I was going to mention this the other day, but I figured at this point - what's the point?

 

[Goldenhawk]

By the way, the Texas illustration above is explicitly covered in its state law, so it is not just their driver handbook: CHAPTER 545. OPERATION AND MOVEMENT OF VEHICLES section (2) (c) "On a street or roadway designated for two-way traffic, the operator turning left shall, to the extent practicable, turn in the portion of the intersection to the left of the center of the intersection".

“Shall,” not “may.”

Given both our military turnover and the population size of Texas, it is certain that our area is home to many people trained to drive in Texas who KNOW that hugging the left is legally required in some places. So trying to force them to follow something different, especially when MD law does not explicitly require it, is Quixotic at best.

If nothing else, knowing that the situation varies from place to place, and that they are not breaking any specific law, should lower everyone’s blood pressure and stress level. There’s no need to flip off other drivers or scream at them; just relax and go with the flow, drive graciously, and be careful enough to not hit anyone.

 

[BernieP]

I thought it was 100', but regardless, yes, there is a zone of "no lane change approaching an intersection". Former member APS reminded us a few times. Sometimes you will see the lane markers change from dashed to solid near the intersection, but I haven't seen that around here.

200, 100, nobody seems to care.

I realized on my drive in today that people around these here parts drive with their head firmly in their ass.
They make up the rules to go along. For instance, they will get in the "right turn lane" on 235 maybe a mile before they are turning right.
But when it comes to left turns, they brake, then ever so slowly move to the lane, usually crossing in on the solid while line.
They don't stop on red, but won't move on green.
It's brake first, turn signal (maybe) last.
Alien rules of the road to me, guess I should take my MD driver's test.