From Iraq to Iran

[SamSpade]

To this day he refuses to go to the Vietnam Memorial, or watch any movies about it. I know he's lost quite a few friends, but he's never shared names or memories.

My dad goes, from time to time. He's a Naval Academy grad, but he wasn't career, and he was too old for Vietnam - or, rather, Vietnam happened a bit later than his time in the Navy. However, many of his friends remained, and some of those names are on that wall. It still hits him hard, even though I know it has to be 40 years at least, and someone he could not possibly know well. There's just something about knowing that a friend fell in combat.

I have only a tiny exposure to that; I was in ROTC in college, left it without obligation - but my next-door dorm mate was shot down near Israel years later - and the rumor I heard was that it was the Israelis. He was the very first person I met in college, but we were never close friends. My first week in school he was the only other person in my dorm, but after that I didn't talk to him much. There's just something weird about knowing someone you were friends with was killed.

 

[SamSpade]

I know this kind of crap happens to soldiers in all wars but that was a f*cked-up war and we should never have been there.

There've been f*cked up soldiers returning from EVERY war. The Civil War has millions of stories about that. And we almost had a coup after the Revolution, because angry soldiers weren't paid right away.

My personal sentiment is that Vietnam was particularly difficult because of the lack of support they received, both in country and at home. It was screwed up because their hands were tied, it was mismanaged and they came home to a public that told them they wasted their lives there. It was a war that lasted too long and men were drafted unwillingly into a conflict that the government was unwilling to win. I think it was the right thing to do, but we should have done it right. Popular opinion and propaganda ruined the will of the people and the military.

 

[Nupe2]

There've been f*cked up soldiers returning from EVERY war. The Civil War has millions of stories about that. And we almost had a coup after the Revolution, because angry soldiers weren't paid right away.

No disagreement with that.

My personal sentiment is that Vietnam was particularly difficult because of the lack of support they received, both in country and at home. It was screwed up because their hands were tied, it was mismanaged and they came home to a public that told them they wasted their lives there. It was a war that lasted too long and men were drafted unwillingly into a conflict that the government was unwilling to win. I think it was the right thing to do, but we should have done it right. Popular opinion and propaganda ruined the will of the people and the military.

Do you think it was the right thing to do because of the "domino theory?" Just curious.

We gotta get some airtime! (had to write something. got the "message too short" message)

 

[vraiblonde]

My perception growing up was that we were losing badly - our troops were terrible - we had no concept of handling or conducting that war - and that the Tet Offensive was a *colossal* loss that we never bounced back from.

This is the same garbage they're trying to do with the Iraq War, which is why I get my news from Fox and not CNN. I know what my son and DIL tell me, and they were right there, both Intel. And I tend to put more faith in them than some partisan political hack or some Leftist Mother Sheehan protestor.

I got my Vietnam War education at the knee of a bunch of drunks. I tended bar in this shitkicker place and the guys would get in their cups and start telling stories and re-fighting the war, talking about what went wrong, what should have been done differently, etc. And what they always came down to was that there was no support on the homefront, either from the people or the politicians, and they felt (to a man) that their buddies had died in vain. And they resented the media portrayals, telling the story from the VC POV and making them all out to be baby killers, etc., with no mention of North Vietnamese atrocities.

 

[ylexot]

There've been f*cked up soldiers returning from EVERY war. The Civil War has millions of stories about that. And we almost had a coup after the Revolution, because angry soldiers weren't paid right away.

Ever read "Flags of Our Fathers"? Amazing book about Iwo Jima. In fact the author's description of his father sounds very similar to the description Bob gives about his father.

 

[itsbob]

Ever read "Flags of Our Fathers"? Amazing book about Iwo Jima. In fact the author's description of his father sounds very similar to the description Bob gives about his father.

AND if you haven't read the book, "We were soldiers once:.."

Get it, the movie was fairly accurate, but only told about 1/4th of the story...

 

[SamSpade]

Do you think it was the right thing to do because of the "domino theory?" Just curious

Somewhat. This will sound lame, but in context, at the time - it was the right thing to do, if only to show the Russians and Chinese we would stand up to them. Think of it as a battleground of the Cold War.

The concept itself was mistaken - there was no unified concept of Communism trying to spread worldwide. Communist states were just as likely to wage war on EACH OTHER - and they did. They weren't some great big benevolent brotherhood of man, there wasn't quite so much collusion. But the next ten to fifteen years saw the rapid rise of Marxist-Leninist states arising from weak regimes, especially in Africa and Central America. And it was stopped. For now, and probably for good, the threat of Communism is halted worldwide. Once the Iron Curtain finally collapsed, there weren't anymore subsidies coming across the ocean.

What was wrong is, you never fight a war to achieve a tie, which is how I view the way we fought, and the way we have fought in generic "peacekeeping" missions. You fight to win, and you give it all you have, because otherwise, you're sacrificing lives for no damned reason.

 

[Larry Gude]

Or...

Yeah...sorry about that. I've been in a couple of these "me vs. the righties" battles myself a bit ago. Every now and then I'll jump in and try to prove a point...but I've found it a completelly futile exercise. The sheep completely bought into what the GOP have sold them. Hell...they REALLY believe that FOX "News" is fair and balanced!

...another one might be that the 'Sheep have bought into what Mother Sheehan and the DU told them. Hell, they actually believe that the major media is fair and balanced."

Yeah, that might be another way of looking at this.

 

[SamSpade]

AND if you haven't read the book, "We were soldiers once:.."

Get it, the movie was fairly accurate, but only told about 1/4th of the story...

I should. I love this quote, and I hope it IS accurate:

"Look around you. In the 7th cavalry, we've got a captain from the Ukraine; another from Puerto Rico. We've got Japanese, Chinese, Blacks, Hispanics, Cherokee Indians. Jews and Gentiles. All Americans. Now here in the states, some of you in this unit may have experienced discrimination because of race or creed. But for you and me now, all that is gone. We're moving into the valley of the shadow of death, where you will watch the back of the man next to you, as he will watch yours. And you won't care what color he is, or by what name he calls God. They say we're leaving home. We're going to what home was always supposed to be. Now let us understand the situation. We are going into battle against a tough and determined enemy. I can't promise you that I will bring you all home alive. But this I swear, before you and before Almighty God, that when we go into battle, I will be the first to set foot on the field, and I will be the last to step off, and I will leave no one behind. Dead or alive, we will all come home together. So help me, God."

 

[Larry Gude]

Nupe...

your point:

I think we might have won the war if we had done so but we would most likely have been stuck there in much the same manner as we are in Iraq; trying to win the peace. That one is a tougher nut to crack

my point:

Germany

Japan

South Korea


How are they doing vs. Vietnam?

 

[SamSpade]

your point:



my point:

Germany

Japan

South Korea


How are they doing vs. Vietnam?

Actually, what's funny is, war or not - WE ARE STILL *IN* those places!

 

[ylexot]

AND if you haven't read the book, "We were soldiers once:.."

Get it, the movie was fairly accurate, but only told about 1/4th of the story...

I'll have to get that one. I loved the movie.

 

[SAHRAB]

Them Pesky facts get in the way all the time.

All underlined items are Linky's

I can see I'm all alone on this one. Yes I have. I saw the reasons and I would argue that you could use the same rationale to attack other "Axis" countries or even our so-called Allies (e.g., the Saudis).

And North Korea, and Syria, and Iran, and Libya (at the time). but that doesnt make Iraq any less valid.

"Whereas the President and Congress are determined to continue to take all appropriate actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations;

Whereas the President has authority under the Constitution to take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in the joint resolution on Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40);"

Anyone can Parse a Document to get what they want from it, I'm sure if i Parse the Bible i can get it to say "Jesus was killed by God for looking at Soddom" (sorry 2A, just making a point)

The Actual Iraq War Resolution

Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence reporting had previously indicated (And that was the prevailing thought at the time, BY EVERYONE, including the United Nations, the Sainted Klintons, Gore, most DemocRATs and Kerry), ;

Whereas Iraq, in direct and flagrant violation of the cease-fire, attempted to thwart the efforts of weapons inspectors to identify and destroy Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stockpiles and development capabilities, which finally resulted in the withdrawal of inspectors from Iraq on October 31, 1998;

Whereas in 1998 Congress concluded that Iraq's continuing weapons of mass destruction programs threatened vital United States interests and international peace and security, declared Iraq to be in "material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations" and urged the President "to take appropriate action, in accordance with the Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations" (Public Law 105-235);

Whereas Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations by, among other things, continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations;

Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolutions of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population (But hey they were better off under Saddam right?) thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman (he doesnt count, he was just a Duped Grunt), and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait;

Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people (guess no one remembers the Scud Launches into Israel, but them Jews deserved it);

Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its continuing hostility toward, and willingness to attack, the United States, including by attempting in 1993 to assassinate former President Bush and by firing on many thousands of occasions on United States and Coalition Armed Forces engaged in enforcing the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council;

Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq (well that had to go somewhere, why would we bother them?) ;

Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations (the fact that Saddam blatantly advertised that he would give $25,000 to the families of Palestinian Suicide Bombers kind of supports that, ), including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of American citizens;

Whereas the attacks on the United States of September 11, 2001 underscored the gravity of the threat posed by the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction by international terrorist organizations;

(gonna have to break this up)

 

[Ken King]

Too busy to debate you. We just don't and probably won't agree on this one. Time will tell whose position was correct. Have a great day!

Yeah, we won't agree on this. And how can we tell which position was correct, do you have a means of rolling back the clock so we can see what doing nothing would have accomplished?

 

[vraiblonde]

Actually, what's funny is, war or not - WE ARE STILL *IN* those places!

WHEN will WWII end??? Bring our troops home!!

 

[ylexot]

New Documents from Saddam Hussein's Archives Discuss Bin Laden, WMDs

 

[Nupe2]

WHEN will WWII end??? Bring our troops home!!

You,re funny!

 

[SAHRAB]

Refuting the BullShiat Continues :
All Underlined Items are Linky's

When you use Michael Moore as your source of "information" you are bound to run into problems (namely Facts)

• Vice President Dick Cheney was CEO of Halliburton from 1995-2000.

Woop-dee-Doo, Hitlary Klinton sat on the Board of Wal-Mart

• Halliburton's board of directors voted to give Cheney a $20 million retirement package when he resigned, in addition to providing him with a massive salary and a bonus for just eight months of work in 2000..

Your talking points are screwing you up, before you said he was CEO from 1995-2000 now its just 8 Months of work?

FactCheck.org

To start, the $2 million figure is wrong. It is true that Cheney has received just under $2 million from Halliburton since his election, but nearly $1.6 million of that total was paid before Cheney actually took office on Jan. 20, 2001. Saying Cheney got that much "as vice president" is simply false.

We asked Cheney's personal attorney to document that, and he did, supplying several documents never released publicly before:

• A Halliburton pay statement dated Jan 2, 2001 shows just under $147,579 was paid that day as "elect defrl payou," meaning payout of salary from the company's Elective Deferral Plan. That was salary Cheney had earned in 1999, but which he had chosen previously to receive in five installments spread over five years.
• Another pay statement dated Jan. 18 shows $1,451,398 was paid that day under the company's "Incentive Plan C" for senior executives. That was Cheney's incentive compensation -- bonus money -- paid on the basis of the company's performance in 2000. Cheney had formally resigned from the company the previous September to campaign full time, but the amount of his bonus couldn't be calculated until the full year's financial results were known.

Cheney's personal financial disclosure forms, together with the pay statements just mentioned, show that Cheney has received $398,548 in deferred salary from Halliburton "as vice president." And of course, all of that is money he earned when he was the company's chief executive officer. Cheney was due to receive another payment in 2004, and a final payment in 2005.

• Following his departure from Halliburton, Cheney retained possession of 433,333 options of Halliburton stock.

So he shouldnt be paid for his work?

FactCheck.org

Stock Options

....However, Cheney and his wife Lynne have assigned any future profits from their stock options in Halliburton and several other companies to charity. And we're not just taking the Cheney's word for this -- we asked for a copy of the legal agreement they signed, which we post here publicly for the first time.

The "Gift Trust Agreement" the Cheney's signed two days before he took office turns over power of attorney to a trust administrator to sell the options at some future time and to give the after-tax profits to three charities. The agreement specifies that 40% will go to the University of Wyoming (Cheney's home state), 40% will go to George Washington University's medical faculty to be used for tax-exempt charitable purposes, and 20% will go to Capital Partners for Education , a charity that provides financial aid for low-income students in Washington, DC to attend private and religious schools.

The agreement states that it is "irrevocable and may not be terminated, waived or amended," so the Cheney's can't take back their options later.

• Although Cheney insisted that he severed his financial ties to Halliburton, the Congressional Research Service recently released a report saying that federal ethics laws consider both Cheney's deferred compensation and his stock options as lingering financial interest in the company.

Actually thats not what it said, but your going off of Talking Points so we dont expect you to actually find out for yourself

"Financial Interest"

Democratic Sen. Frank Lautenberg released a legal analysis he'd requested from the Congressional Research Service. Without naming Cheney, the memo concluded a federal official in his position -- with deferred compensation covered by insurance, and stock options whose after-tax profits had been assigned to charity -- would still retain an "interest" that must be reported on an official's annual disclosure forms. And in fact, Cheney does report his options and deferred salary each year.

But the memo reached no firm conclusion as to whether such options or salary constitute an "interest" that would pose a legal conflict. It said "it is not clear" whether assigning option profits to charity would theoretically remove a potential conflict, adding, "no specific published rulings were found on the subject." And it said that insuring deferred compensation "might" remove it as a problem under conflict of interest laws.

... by removing the "potential for gain or loss" Cheney has solid grounds to argue that he has removed any "financial interest" that would pose a conflict under federal regulations.
US Code of Federal Regulations,TITLE 5, CHAPTER XVI--OFFICE OF GOVERNMENT ETHICS, PART 2640--INTERPRETATION, EXEMPTIONS AND WAIVER GUIDANCE CONCERNING 18 U.S.C. 208 (ACTS AFFECTING A PERSONAL FINANCIAL INTEREST) 5CFR2640.103(b)

Halliburton's Contract with the Federal Government

• The Pentagon knew it would need help after the war rebuilding Iraqi oil fields and putting out oil field fires. Rather than following normal procedure and asking companies to bid on the job, the Pentagon turned the entire project over to Cheney's former firm, Halliburton. The Army Corps of Engineers said that Halliburton's compensation for rejuvenating Iraq's oil industry could be up to $7 billion. In postwar Iraq, Halliburton is the largest private contractor, with potential deals totaling over $11 billion.

Take a gander from theBastion of Conservatism

First you show your ignorance in how Government Contracting works. ALL government contracts run (that is start and end) on a (fiscal) yearly basis, all of them. But in an effort to streamline how (all) contracts are handled, the Government and the Contracting company reach agreements (typically 3, 5 or 10 years) so that they dont have to go through the Bidding/Procurement process Every Fiscal Year (ends September 30th).
VIRTUALLY all government contracts work this way, its a Win for the Government (they get garrunteed service for a set time, and dont have to go through a Huge Retrain process every year) and a Win for the Contracting Company (garunteed income).
This is how BAE, Titan, Caci and Booz|Allen (and others) have stayed at Pax for as long as they have.
Second Haliburton was awarded the Iraqi Contracts during the Klinton presidency, 1998 i believe (oops kind sucks to be you). When there was thought that we'd re-invade Iraq (for throwing out the Weapons Inspectors), they went to the company that was Contracted for the Bosnia "issue" and awarded them the contract in the event we went to war (again) with Iraq. when the 2003 Iraq invasion came about, Halliburton was just awarded its existing contract.
Third how many companies (at the time) could do what Halliburton was awarded (in 1998) the contract for? 1 it was a French company, guess you LibTARDs do support outsourcing.

• Last September, Cheney said that he did not influence the decision to award Halliburton a no-bid contract: "I have absolutely no influence of, involvement of, knowledge of in any way, shape or form of contracts led by the [Army] Corps of Engineers or anybody else in the federal
government."

And besides LibTARD pontificators no one has proven otherwise.

Since then, we have learned that:

Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, received a Pentagon briefing in October 2002, one month prior to directing Halliburton to develop a secret plan for restoring and operating Iraq's oil infrastructure. The vice president's office was also made aware of a second contract worth up to $7 billion awarded to Halliburton four months later for implementing this plan.

• Time Magazine uncovered an e-mail indicating that the $7 billion contract awarded to Halliburton was "coordinated" with Cheney's office.

have a link?

I could go on but, damn! Is anybody home out there? Our sons and daughters are dying because of this bs!

Our Sons and Daughters, who are ADULTS and Volunteered, are dying to provide the same freedom of being able to Spout LibTARD BS that you enjoy.

Look we live in the greatest nation in the free world, I just wish we could figure out that we are being lied to and coerced into supporting policies that are absolutely insane and ultimately immoral.

Because Dan Rather, Michael Moore and the Sainted Klintons have harboured an environment where Kooky LibTARDs will believe the Sky is Falling, George Bush's environmental policies caused it, and Halliburton is profitting from it.

You are supposedy more intelligent than us Truck driving, Whitetrash Red State, Racist conservatives, yet you'll believe the most idiotic vitriol.

 

[Nupe2]

Yeah, we won't agree on this. And how can we tell which position was correct, do you have a means of rolling back the clock so we can see what doing nothing would have accomplished?

My immediate reaction to your comment was....but instead I'll just say that I never said we shoud do nothing. I only expressed my concern that in this changing world it appears that diplomacy is no longer practiced in the manner it was (occasionally, I will agree) in the past. Having said that, war is still a testament to the failure of diplomacy. Just expressing my opinion, not expecting you to understand or agree. Have a nice day.

 

[SAHRAB]

Yeah...sorry about that. I've been in a couple of these "me vs. the righties" battles myself a bit ago. Every now and then I'll jump in and try to prove a point...but I've found it a completelly futile exercise. The sheep completely bought into what the GOP have sold them. Hell...they REALLY believe that FOX "News" is fair and balanced!

LibTARD speak for

I tried to spout my LibTARD BS that i got from DailKos, Democratic Underground and Michael Moore(on) but they refuted everything i said with Facts and I had to leave the discussion.