Gay marraige

Should gays be allowed to marry?

  • NO way! One man and one woman only. That's what marriage is

    Votes: 27 39.1%
  • Sure, why not

    Votes: 29 42.0%
  • Civil union maybe, but not marriage

    Votes: 15 21.7%
  • This world is really going crazy!

    Votes: 8 11.6%

  • Total voters
    69
  • Poll closed .

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
Larry Gude said:
People do have a right to oppose gay marriage on any grounds they choose. It's up to our laws to trump peoples passions and viewpoints. The Constitution provides for equal protection and does not allow for discrimination based on gender.

:yay: That's my point as well. There's a difference between an individual having a personal objection to gay marriage, and an individual demanding that government outlaw it based on that objection. The latter is not so much about passions and viewpoints as it is about control. People are going to form straight couples and gay couples regardless of what opinions others have.
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
vraiblonde said:
I've said it a thousand times - here's one more:

You cannot constitutionally forbid gay marriage. Churches can say they won't marry gays, and that is their right - hell, they won't even marry heteros who aren't church members. But people who are married by a JOP consider themselves married, and the law considers them as such, too. Religion has nothing to do with "marriage" - you get a marriage license from the state, not a church.

So, yes, gays should be allowed to legally marry.

I, for the thousandth time, have to disagree with you. There's no rights or benefits that a gay couple will be denied by going through a civil union rather than a marriage, so what's the headlong push for marriage all about? The push for gay marriage has nothing to do with the stated purposes - that being equal access to loved ones in hospitals, insurance, etc. There isn't a hospital in the country these days that would deny a gay couple access to one another, and most insurance companies already allow for designating "life partners" as beneficiaries or to be on policies. The push for gay marriages is 100% about legitimizing the gay lifestyle.

The gays have largely legitimized themselves with the public, the media, and with the government. They have one last roadblock and that's the churches. As long as churches, and the people who attend them, see them as being morally objectionable, the gays can't be legitimate. So how can the gays get past this roadblock? The only way is if they can get the government and the courts to help them, and the only way they can do that is by making gay marriages the law of the land. Once the government determines that gays can marry, the gays will immediately start suing the churches, as public places, to allow them to marry. The churches will then have to either accept gays, close themselves to members only, or go broke from fighting the lawsuits. Don't think it'll happen? Look at all the legal heat the Boy Scouts took because they banned gay scout masters.

As an Agnostic I have no loyalties to any church, and don't really care about anyone's religious beliefs. But over the past 20 years we've seen assault after assault on the beliefs of those who do hold them by the ACLU, pornographers, etc. The Founding Fathers designed our government in such a way as to avoid a repeat of the Church of England experience. It was King Henry VIII's insistence that the laws of the Roman Catholic Church regarding divorice be changed that led to the creation of the Church of England, and hence the establishment clause ensured that the United States government could not make any laws effecting church laws and could not go out and form a new religion like King Henry did if they couldn't get the churches to change the laws. But that was a couple hundred years ago, and people now believe that the establishment clause is in place to protect government from religion instead of the other way around. I see legalizing gay marriage as the start of a constitutional crisis the likes of which we haven't ever seen, and we don't need that as a country.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I do agree with that...

There's no rights or benefits that a gay couple will be denied by going through a civil union rather than a marriage, so what's the headlong push for marriage all about?

Being married by the X church or them refusing to do so is something the Constiotution also addresses; religious freedom. A religion cannot be made to do something against their faith.

When I use the word 'marriage' I think of what a Justice of the peace, who is, I believe, a government employee, does.

Hell, isn't being married by a JP a civil union anyway?
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Larry Gude said:
Hell, isn't being married by a JP a civil union anyway?
It might be a non-religious ceremony but it still is a marriage as they affix their signature to the state issued marriage license.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Bruzilla said:
There's no rights or benefits that a gay couple will be denied by going through a civil union rather than a marriage, so what's the headlong push for marriage all about?
If they're going to have the exact same rights and benefits, what is the difference if they call it "civil union" or "marriage"?

All it means is two different sets of paperwork for the state to issue and process, for the exact same thing except one is a male/female couple and the other is a same sex couple.

That, to me, is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I don't mean to quibble over terminology...

Ken King said:
It might be a non-religious ceremony but it still is a marriage as they affix their signature to the state issued marriage license.


I support gay marriage as in legal union of two people in what is commonly thought of as a marriage. I see this as an equal rights issue.

I do not support forcing any church to sanction that which they do not approve of in terms of their religion. Constitutional grounds of the right of free worship.
 

bdh802

Bob
Larry Gude said:
I support gay marriage as in legal union of two people in what is commonly thought of as a marriage. I see this as an equal rights issue.

I do not support forcing any church to sanction that which they do not approve of in terms of their religion. Constitutional grounds of the right of free worship.

I guess we could go back and forth on this issue for a really long time. We were all raised differently and have our reasons for believing what we do. I guess it's time to agree that we disagree and move on.

Heck, I spoke to someone last week who said they would vote for Hillary Clinton is she ran for President. I told her that I'd like to see Ann Coulter run someday. Needless to say, our conversation was short.
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
Larry Gude said:
I support gay marriage as in legal union of two people in what is commonly thought of as a marriage. I see this as an equal rights issue.

I do not support forcing any church to sanction that which they do not approve of in terms of their religion. Constitutional grounds of the right of free worship.
That's really the meat of the entire issue. I think people are confused as to what homosexuals want. They don't want the government to force churches to perform weddings, all they want is the government to give them equal rights under the law. What a church does is her own business.

What would be interesting to see is the reverse. If a church suddenly sanctioned gay marriage and started performing services. would the government then be forced to recongize it? The government by law could not stop or invalidate such an action. Just an interesting hypothesis to ponder.
 

Merlin99

Visualize whirled peas
PREMO Member
Bustem' Down said:
That's really the meat of the entire issue. I think people are confused as to what homosexuals want. They don't want the government to force churches to perform weddings, all they want is the government to give them equal rights under the law. What a church does is her own business.

What would be interesting to see is the reverse. If a church suddenly sanctioned gay marriage and started performing services. would the government then be forced to recongize it? The government by law could not stop or invalidate such an action. Just an interesting hypothesis to ponder.

Sure they could, just not issue a license and it's not a legal marriage.
 

CrashTest

Well-Known Member
Bustem' Down said:
What would be interesting to see is the reverse. If a church suddenly sanctioned gay marriage and started performing services. would the government then be forced to recongize it? The government by law could not stop or invalidate such an action. Just an interesting hypothesis to ponder.

This is why the government has to define marriage. It doesn’t matter whether they allow gay marriage or not as long as they define marriage and also define restrictions on marriage.

Remember my post about me marrying my cat in order to save on my income tax? If the government does not define marriage, then I can invent my own religion, build my own church, and marry my cat (or anything else I want). The government would then be compelled to recognize it.

Obviously my scenario is crazy but with no clear-cut definition of marriage, then anything’s possible – especially with today’s wacky court rulings.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Merlin99 said:
Sure they could, just not issue a license and it's not a legal marriage.
And there you have it. Which proves that marriage isn't a religious entity, it's a legal one that is granted by the state.
 
I say if they wanna be miserable like everyone else, let em!


But really, I dont care if they get married, who is it gonna hurt? Whats the difference if they do or not, is gay marraige going to poision your marriage? Is your husband/wife of 30 years going to run off with one of their own sex now that they can? Be reasonable, it doesnt hurt anyone except the people who cant accept change. Take biracial marriage, it used to be illegal, now its not. Just my .02
 

mAlice

professional daydreamer
Bruzilla said:
I, for the thousandth time, have to disagree with you. There's no rights or benefits that a gay couple will be denied by going through a civil union rather than a marriage, so what's the headlong push for marriage all about? The push for gay marriage has nothing to do with the stated purposes - that being equal access to loved ones in hospitals, insurance, etc. There isn't a hospital in the country these days that would deny a gay couple access to one another, and most insurance companies already allow for designating "life partners" as beneficiaries or to be on policies. The push for gay marriages is 100% about legitimizing the gay lifestyle.

The gays have largely legitimized themselves with the public, the media, and with the government. They have one last roadblock and that's the churches. As long as churches, and the people who attend them, see them as being morally objectionable, the gays can't be legitimate. So how can the gays get past this roadblock? The only way is if they can get the government and the courts to help them, and the only way they can do that is by making gay marriages the law of the land. Once the government determines that gays can marry, the gays will immediately start suing the churches, as public places, to allow them to marry. The churches will then have to either accept gays, close themselves to members only, or go broke from fighting the lawsuits. Don't think it'll happen? Look at all the legal heat the Boy Scouts took because they banned gay scout masters.

As an Agnostic I have no loyalties to any church, and don't really care about anyone's religious beliefs. But over the past 20 years we've seen assault after assault on the beliefs of those who do hold them by the ACLU, pornographers, etc. The Founding Fathers designed our government in such a way as to avoid a repeat of the Church of England experience. It was King Henry VIII's insistence that the laws of the Roman Catholic Church regarding divorice be changed that led to the creation of the Church of England, and hence the establishment clause ensured that the United States government could not make any laws effecting church laws and could not go out and form a new religion like King Henry did if they couldn't get the churches to change the laws. But that was a couple hundred years ago, and people now believe that the establishment clause is in place to protect government from religion instead of the other way around. I see legalizing gay marriage as the start of a constitutional crisis the likes of which we haven't ever seen, and we don't need that as a country.

How can this argument hold water when their are gay preachers, who stand at the pulpit every sunday in their own churches?
 
Bruzilla said:
The gays have largely legitimized themselves with the public, the media, and with the government. They have one last roadblock and that's the churches. As long as churches, and the people who attend them, see them as being morally objectionable, the gays can't be legitimate. So how can the gays get past this roadblock?

They do have gay churches......
 

Merlin99

Visualize whirled peas
PREMO Member
CrashTest said:
This is why the government has to define marriage. It doesn’t matter whether they allow gay marriage or not as long as they define marriage and also define restrictions on marriage.

Remember my post about me marrying my cat in order to save on my income tax? If the government does not define marriage, then I can invent my own religion, build my own church, and marry my cat (or anything else I want). The government would then be compelled to recognize it.

Obviously my scenario is crazy but with no clear-cut definition of marriage, then anything’s possible – especially with today’s wacky court rulings.
If your cat could give legal consent, then yes you could. Since it can't, you can't The same reasoning applies to a coma patient or a melon, no consent, no marriage.
 
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