Going forward

demsformd

New Member
A Change of Heart

I have been thinking about the premise of war for some time now and as you guys know, I have been an anti-war man here for a while. But the more that I think about it, the more that I support President Bush in his crusade against Iraq. I am a supporter of human rights and a supporter of democracy, two things that do not occurr in Iraq. Hussein has also demonstrated that he is a significant threat to the World as well as a hindrance to Middle East stability. In order to ensure that the Middle East becomes more stable and more inclined to be peaceful, he must be removed from power.

MGKrebs, I am a liberal and always will be. But we are wrong on this one and if we are truly dedicated to our principles of respect for democracy and freedom we will fight against Hussein.
 
H

Heretic

Guest
dems, what changed your mind exactly?

One of the reasons I left the democratic party is because I believed that most of the members wouldnt listen to any other view than their own. I have to respect the fact that you listened to the other view (even if you hadn't come over to it).

Maybe your not so bad after all :biggrin:
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Good for you, Dems. There's no shame in changing your mind and there's no shame in going against your party on an issue. It's a sign of integrity.
:clap:
 

Hessian

Well-Known Member
Economy in the "Tank"

I am a bit puzzled by this impression...

Home starts are way up! Millions can now afford to own their own homes.

Employment is generally stable.

Car loans can be gotten at 0% from dealers.

Gas Prices are up but also stable...they'll come down again if Venezuela calms down or Nigeria helps meet the needs.

Our private school is the largest it has ever been and we have a waiting list pages long...tuition is now more than my college tuition.-And parents a pleading to get in. We are due for a sizable raise next year.


Yeah...boy, we are really in the Tank aren't we?

If you feel the "pain" of the needy, quit your griping and go help out at a homeless shelter...and look at the people who live in relative comfort and ease compared to the third world (or compared to our grandparents in the Depression!)

The "tank" my eye....wake up!
 

MGKrebs

endangered species
Stop bringing up that guy that won the lottery

Vrai! You're making my point for me. When you give money to somebody who hasn't had much of it, they spend it. That's what I'm sayin'!

If a person is already wealthy, how much more do we have to give them to get them to buy that new Jag?

Larry, I had thought Osama was dead ever since Tora Bora. But then we started sayin' that the latest audio seemed legit, so now I'm not sure. Would we keep the spirit of Osama alive for political purposes? Sure. But since we have no other info to go on, I'm going to assume he's alive. And i agree that to a certain extent he's a pawn. But the roots and money seem to be coming from inside Saudi, and we don't seem to be willing to mess with that. So once again, our dependence on oil is keeping us from doing the right thing, in this case, fighting terrorism.

I agree that the economy is not horrible. It's just fragile. Car loans are 0% because it's the only way they can sell them right now. Interest rates probably can't go any lower , so if more corrections are needed, we'll have to find something else. The recent home sales number is encouraging, let's hope we can sustain it. Worst holiday retail sales in either 15 or 30 years (depending on which story one reads).

dems- I am a supporter of human rights too. But there are many other ways to address those problems than war. If we have to fight, fine. I just don't see the need for that kind of intervention in Iraq (yet). And if Saddam is such a threat to the Middle east, why aren't they dealing with it, or at least asking us to? The reverse is happening- we are bribing and coercing them to help us.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Damn Maynard...

...what next, we get together, drinks beers and act civil?

We agree on Saudi. When, what, 16 out of 19, people who will kill themselves in an act of hatred against us are from the same nation...

This is one of the areas I have concerns about the Bush family; BIG ties ($) to the Saudi leaders.

Something stinks there though it may be as innocent as playing ball with who you gotta play ball with, them being more cooperative with us an Israel than some others in the region.

That's the central theme to our bud Osamas attacks: US on Holy ground, Mecca and Medinah. It seems pretty obvious that there are people in power in Saudi who gain, or at least feel they do, from pressure being put on others in that nation.

It could also be as simple as Saudi semi-acceptance of Osama to quell the masses..."The Great Satan got poked in the eye! Now, back to your hovel with joy!"

No way I can see him as alive. It is just to easy to make it obvious that he is around and THAT would serve his stated goals better than the doubt, I think. Unless the goal is to lull us?

I think him buried in one of the caves. We can't prove it and and noise from him, alleged or otherwise, helps us remember the beautiful, sunny New York morning raped by an incredible act of violence.
 
H

Heretic

Guest
I know this didnt stay in the news much but about a month after the CIA said that audio tape was probably Osama some independant forensics lab in Switzerland said they didn't think it was him. Who Knows, but I would think as big of a loud mouth as he is that he would want it to be known that we didnt get him. Its really his number 2 man that is the dangerous one I think his name is Abu Zubdia?
 

MGKrebs

endangered species
That's exactly why I was thinking he was dead, heretic. If he was alive, it seems like it would be important to him to make it known publically. I haven't heard that follow up report. Interesting.

On another note: a lot of troop movements in the past couple of days. Good luck to you guys. Be careful, follow the plan, and come home safe.

My sister used to work for a company in PA that makes biohazard suits for the military. She was writing the technical manuals for them. She is a fine person and very smart. Read the instructions!
 

Penn

Dancing Up A Storm
Trying to work with the UN

Originally posted by MGKrebs
I'm going to take issue with you on a couple of things, Kelley.

Re: Bush. I have no problem with Afghanistan, except that we haven't caught osama.

Iraq- I do not support our strategy. I cannot and will not support war based on evidence that has not been provided, for reasons that are unclear, with consequences that are probably much worse than the problem we are trying to fix. I ain't no CIA analyst, but based on the info I have, that's where I stand.

Especially when I see no real problem with the strategy of containment that we, and the world community, and the UN, have adopted for the past several years.

Bush only changed his tune to say that we would TRY to go through UN channels. He reserves the right to attack anyway, and all indications are that we are just about ready to go.



We have no info that the inspectors have found anything. We have said that the weapons declaration is inadequate, but no specifics have been offered. Troops continue to stage all around Iraq. No one believes that saddam is any kind of serious threat while we essentially occupy two thirds of the country and have every available satellite pointed at them.

Therefore, i can say that there are Democrats who could have handled this better. I don't think it's really a dem vs. repub thing. In other words, just because more repub politicians have ties to the war industry doesn't make them more qualified to decide when not to go to war. :smile:
:razz2: I'm going to take issue with your thoughts, Maynard. Pres.
Bush most likely has info that you and I don't, ie. Cia/ or somebody, has passed along some data from the camp in Cuba.
the only way he could get a consensus with world nations is to get the UN together. BTW, you say "he would try to go through UN channels ; what do you call what he's done so far???
On one hand you say there are Democraps who could have handled this better, but in the very next sentence, you say you don't think it's really a repub vs. dem thing. Do you know how idiotic , stupid and insipid, not to mention elementary- level thinking that sounds? You offer a lame idea that more repubs have ties to the war industry, but duh, that's third grade musing, as well.
Geez, Krebs, I was just beggining to think you had a head on your shoulders in the last week or so, and you prove me incorrect, and sound off like your other nitwit Berkeley hippee, draft inelligible, radical socialist!


penn
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
*singing* The guy who won the lottery! The guy who won the lottery! Yeah!!! The guy...who...won...the...looooo...terrrrrr...eeeeeeee! *ha*
how much more do we have to give them
Give? Give!?! IT WAS THEIR MONEY IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Iraq and those other pissants
On a much smaller scale, my business operates somewhat similar the the US - we're the big dogs, we've got the knowledge and the product, we have unsuccessful "competitors" who would love nothing more than to see us go down in flames. We are generous with them, giving them tips and pointers, hoping to make an ally...until they show us any kind of aggression. Yes, we want to remain top dog. And, yes, we'd like it if everyone could get along. But we're not stupid and we're not going to let them eat into our market share just so we can be nice guys.

See how it works?
 

MGKrebs

endangered species
Re: Trying to work with the UN

Originally posted by penncam
:razz2: I'm going to take issue with your thoughts, Maynard. Pres.
Bush most likely has info that you and I don't, ie. Cia/ or somebody, has passed along some data from the camp in Cuba.
the only way he could get a consensus with world nations is to get the UN together. BTW, you say "he would try to go through UN channels ; what do you call what he's done so far???
On one hand you say there are Democraps who could have handled this better, but in the very next sentence, you say you don't think it's really a repub vs. dem thing. Do you know how idiotic , stupid and insipid, not to mention elementary- level thinking that sounds? You offer a lame idea that more repubs have ties to the war industry, but duh, that's third grade musing, as well.
Geez, Krebs, I was just beggining to think you had a head on your shoulders in the last week or so, and you prove me incorrect, and sound off like your other nitwit Berkeley hippee, draft inelligible, radical socialist!


penn

We can be pretty sure that Dub has more info than we do. But so does Germany and everybody else. There are a lot of things that I can "trust" our leaders on, but war is not one of them. If they have the info, and they do what is necessary, fine. But absent compelling evidence, my opinion is to defer to something other than war. Dub probly doesn't give a sh*t what I think anyway, but if he wants to change my mind, come up with the poop. If it's secret, then I suppose I'll find out after it's all over whether I was right or wrong.

In the dem vs. repub thing, I'm just responding to somebody saying that dub is doing better than ANY dem. I'm sayin' that there are SOME dems who would do better, and by the same token, there are some that would do worse. Just like repubs.

As far as repub ties to the war industry- yeah, I'm a little out there on that one. There's probably plenty of dems who are too. But it's the 'pubs who are calling the shots right now, so they get to take the heat.

Vrai- jeez, and you are the one complaining about misdirection. So OK. Rephrase: How much money do we have to GIVE BACK to the wealthy to get them to buy that new Jag? Happy?

International relations as capitalism. Hmmm. Curious thought. Typical conservative thought- free market solves all problems. Whether they want it or not. I don't buy it. Even we have laws against monopolies. And the battle isn't about who can survive within capitalism, it's about "can we co-exist with non-capitalist" systems.

You hopefully know me well enough by now to know that I love democracy and freedom. I'm not so sure about capitalism however, and I think we often juxtapose "democracy" for "capitalism". Yes, we want other countries to be free. Do we have the right to "impose" freedom? I don't think so. Do we have the right to impose capitalism? To me, absolutely not.

In my business, we've discovered a niche. There is no local competitor, but the market is small. We are happy with our symbiotic relationship with our customers, but don't expect to corner the market for every product all the time. If somebody tries to compete with us, we will kick their asses. But if they leave us alone, we do not feel the need to go out and find competitors to mess with. Can this work in a capitalist system?
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Maynard, I think it's sweet that you think world leaders have such altruistic motivations. You used the word "non-capitalist" to describe such countries as (I'm guessing here) Cuba, China, Iraq, Iran, etc. Let's call them what they are: dictatorships. Do you truly understand how these countries work?

Explain to me why we should worry about "getting along" with countries whose leaders pillage and plunder, torture, starve and outright kill their citizenry and then try to get all uppity with us? If it were up to me, not only would we not try to "get along" with these people but I'd send troops in there to overthrow their governments and Marshall Plan their happy a$$es.

If you saw your neighbor beating and starving their child, would you shrug and say, "Not my business" and try to get along with him? Or would you try to stop him?

Do you think the Iraqui citizens aren't praying every day that US troops come in and liberate them from Saddam? Do you think the South Vietnamese were happy when Nixon pulled the troops out? Do you think the South Koreans don't want us there? Why do you think Cubans jump on boats and risk death to escape Cuba and come to this country? Don't you think the Cubans would be overjoyed to have us come in there and oust Fidel?

Because, contrary to what Noam Chomsky keeps telling you, the US doesn't hang out in these countries as an act of aggression - we're there to protect them from invasion and keep the peace.
 

MGKrebs

endangered species
I guess I feel that if we don't want China or somebody coming over here telling us how to live, we shouldn't be doing it to others.
As far as i am concerned, Iraq is somebody else's neighborhood. Although there are complications, since we essentially kept saddam in power for a while. Besides, as i've said before, there are other ways to influence others' behavior than shooting them.

So, do you have any tatoos?
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
In fact, I do have a tattoo - it's a heart with an 8th note through on my left shoulder blade. No "Born To Be Wild" or daggers dripping blood - sorry. :wink:

I guess I feel that if we don't want China or somebody coming over here telling us how to live, we shouldn't be doing it to others.
So you're saying we shouldn't have intervened in WWII Germany? That we should just mind our own business and only intervene if it directly affects us? I used to feel that way, too. I used to think that if these people were worth a hoot, they'd overthrow their government and liberate themselves. But it's not the American way to just let people suffer and not try to help them. I have enough closet liberal in me that I wish the US would get rid of ALL these effers so we could have some world peace for a change. Wouldn't that be nice?
 

MGKrebs

endangered species
Well, again,

there's more than just "nothing" and "### whuppin", Different scenarios require different responses.

What's with the eighth note? Or does this deserve a new thread?
 

Penn

Dancing Up A Storm
But wait! There's more . . ..

Originally posted by vraiblonde
Let's call them what they are: dictatorships. Do you truly understand how these countries work?

Explain to me why we should worry about "getting along" with countries whose leaders pillage and plunder, torture, starve and outright kill their citizenry and then try to get all uppity with us? If it were up to me, not only would we not try to "get along" with these people but I'd send troops in there to overthrow their governments and Marshall Plan their happy a$$es.

If you saw your neighbor beating and starving their child, would you shrug and say, "Not my business" and try to get along with him? Or would you try to stop him?
:frown: And do you know what the Fox News said tonight
on the 9:30pm segment? In North Korea, over 2 million people have died, through state killings, torture, medical failings, and downright starvation under the Kim IL-Sung and his nepotistic son's regimes, (Kim Jong-IL?) within the past 8-10 years, alone!
Does this remind you any of Iraq? Both regimes have money to spend on arms and weapons, but don't see fit to help their citizenry. Something like 7 million N. Koreans have to rely on foreign food imports to avoid starvation! As I said in an earlier thread, Saddam offered Murhamar Qhaddafi nearly 2.5 to 3 billion dollars to secure safe haven for he and his family in Libiya, if and when he felt the need to bolt. How many more pictures of Iraq does one need to see that, that country is in trouble?
Vrai, furthermore the United States gives billions of dollars of foreign aid to countries that only seem to bite our hand, and as you say "get all uppity" with us. If I had any sayso, the aid money going to these countries would come to a screeching halt, until they changed their demeanor.

penn
 
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Penn

Dancing Up A Storm
Re: Here's that link, dems.

I read the article in the Atlanta Journal offered up here, only I went and perused a little more than vrai did, just to see where this fellow was going with his arguement. I've not decided which description is more apt; wild ranting and raving, or the demented mind of a near-lunatic!
Pax Americana? I wonder how far down/back the cesspool of journalistic trivia records did he have to delve before reaching that exciting turn of phrase?
What is more, I'm quite confident someone just laid a copy of this "National Security Strategy" lying about for his casual reading in order for him to make his report! But then again, many eye opening documents have been found lying on a table in the White House Library, haven't they? Nah, can't buy this guy's story either, vrai. Wonderful musings though, I'll betcha he's not a repub, hey?

penn
 

Penn

Dancing Up A Storm
Re: Trying to work with the UN

Originally posted by MGKrebs
We can be pretty sure that Dub has more info than we do. But so does Germany and everybody else. There are a lot of things that I can "trust" our leaders on, but war is not one of them. If they have the info, and they do what is necessary, fine. But absent compelling evidence, my opinion is to defer to something other than war. Dub probly doesn't give a sh*t what I think anyway, but if he wants to change my mind, come up with the poop. If it's secret, then I suppose I'll find out after it's all over whether I was right or wrong.

In the dem vs. repub thing, I'm just responding to somebody saying that dub is doing better than ANY dem. I'm sayin' that there are SOME dems who would do better, and by the same token, there are some that would do worse. Just like repubs.

As far as repub ties to the war industry- yeah, I'm a little out there on that one. There's probably plenty of dems who are too. But it's the 'pubs who are calling the shots right now, so they get to take the heat.

Vrai- jeez, and you are the one complaining about misdirection. So OK. Rephrase: How much money do we have to GIVE BACK to the wealthy to get them to buy that new Jag? Happy?

Yes, we want other countries to be free. Do we have the right to "impose" freedom? I don't think so. Do we have the right to impose capitalism? To me, absolutely not.

In my business, we've discovered a niche. There is no local competitor, but the market is small. We are happy with our symbiotic relationship with our customers, but don't expect to corner the market for every product all the time. If somebody tries to compete with us, we will kick their asses. But if they leave us alone, we do not feel the need to go out and find competitors to mess with. Can this work in a capitalist system?
/QUOTE]

:cool: Maynard, I have to apologize to some degree here. I really took issue with some of your replies, two or three ago, and you didn't come back and try to go "one up". You answered the issues
thoughtfully, and I appreciate that. No patronizing here, just stating my view.
I'll say this to you: I am not that naive to simply accept what I hear from our Government all the time, but I
have a sense that credible evidence was recieved by the intelligence community that has warranted the action we are taking. I'll assume for now that revealing the source of that data would put someone or some entity in grave danger if known.
As for Germany, France , some of the other countries we've help liberate, who're dragging their feet, that is their show, for whatever reason, overt or covert.
Say, what if the U.S. quit NATO, and left the rest of the European community to actually defend Europe? Wouldn't that be a novel approach?

penn
 

MGKrebs

endangered species
OK. There are links to the documents

referred to. I will make it easy for you and paste some excerpts below.
I know that to most of you this will all sound great. But it is fundamentally different than the way I see our place in the world. Yes, we are the only super power, and yes there is responsibility that goes with that. But it is clear from this document, which has become our national defense policy, that we do not see ourselves as a member of the world community. We see ourselves as the "king", imposing our views and interests on all those who disagree.

(Italics are mine)

http://www.newamericancentury.org/publicationsreports.htm
REBUILDING AMERICA’S DEFENSES

Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests?... a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad;(Do the Chinese boldly and puposefully promote their principles to us? The Italians? Indians? And we wonder why they don't like us?) America has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests. (I think this is a stretch. What fundamental interests? Oil?) The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they
become dire. The history of the past century should have taught us to embrace the cause of American leadership.” (Everybody agrees with this. But I do not believe it has to be done primarily through threats and violence.)

At present the United States faces no global rival. America’s grand strategy should aim to preserve and extend this advantageous position as far into the future as possible.

Preserving the desirable strategic situation in which the United States now finds itself requires a globally preeminent military capability both today and in the future.

... the United States has been letting its ability to take full advantage of the
remarkable strategic opportunity at hand slip away
.... U.S. military capabilities should be sufficient to support an American grand strategy committed to building upon this unprecedented opportunity.
...building upon the defense strategy outlined by the Cheney Defense Department in the waning days of the Bush Administration. The Defense Policy Guidance (DPG) drafted in the early months of 1992 provided a blueprint for maintaining U.S. preeminence, precluding the rise of a great power rival, and shaping the international security order in line with American principles and interests.

The surplus expected in federal revenues over the next decade, however, removes any need to hold defense spending to some preconceived low level. (This of course is no longer true.)

KEY FINDINGS
This report proceeds from the belief that America should seek to preserve and extend its position of global leadership by maintaining the preeminence of U.S. military forces. Today, the United States has an unprecedented strategic opportunity. It faces no immediate great-power challenge; it is blessed with wealthy, powerful and democratic allies in every part of the world; it is in the midst of the longest economic expansion in its history; (no longer true) and its political and economic principles are almost universally embraced. (except by about one third of the worlds countries.) At no time in history
has the international security order been as conducive to American interests and ideals. The challenge for the coming century is to preserve and enhance this “American peace.” Yet unless the United States maintains sufficient military strength, this opportunity will be lost.

ESTABLISH... CORE MISSIONS for U.S. military forces:
• defend the American homeland;
• fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theater wars;
• perform the “constabulary” duties associated with shaping the security environment in critical regions;

In particular, the United States must:
MAINTAIN NUCLEAR STRATEGIC SUPERIORITY,
REPOSITION U.S. FORCES to respond to 21st century strategic realities by shifting permanently-based forces to Southeast Europe and Southeast Asia, and by changing naval deployment patterns to reflect growing U.S. strategic concerns in East Asia.
DEVELOP AND DEPLOY GLOBAL MISSILE DEFENSES... to provide a secure basis for U.S. power projection around the world.
CONTROL THE NEW “INTERNATIONAL COMMONS” OF SPACE AND “CYBERSPACE,”

... insure the long-term superiority of U.S. conventional forces.

INCREASE DEFENSE SPENDING gradually to a minimum level of 3.5 to 3.8 percent of gross domestic product, adding $15 billion to $20 billion to total defense spending annually.
Fulfilling these requirements is essential if America is to retain its militarily dominant status for the coming decades.

The true cost of not meeting our defense requirements will be a lessened
capacity for American global leadership and, ultimately, the loss of a global security order that is uniquely friendly to American principles and prosperity.
 
H

Heretic

Guest
The truth is that everyone tries to impose their views on someone else no matter who they are, even those that whine that were are doing it. The thing is that they are also trying but we are the ones that can succede at it. If the shoe was on the other foot nothing would be different.

Its human nature.
 
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