Govt Work at Home May Be Over

[OccamsRazor]

You still seem locked into the idea that every tech firm in the country all said at the same time - hey - let’s dump tons of money into this WFH thing. They didn’t and never intended to. It’s like asking why tent villages and refugee camps don’t become permanent cities. They’re not supposed to.

NOPE! Never did or even hinted at this. My question has been and STILL remains to be:

Why are corporations pushing so hard for a RTO when apparently, the WFH option has been so productive, lucrative, and successful? (at least according to every WFH person.. EVER)

Maybe I am not being clear on what I am saying and that is the problem... #mybad

WFH... AS A WHOLE.. is a failure. That DOES NOT mean there aren't positions where WFH can be successful. In my humble opinion, a job that is WFH should be just and ONLY that. A position that is 100% capable of being performed remotely. No 2 days a week in office. No week on/week off in office.
People are inherently lazy. When given the opportunity, with little to no supervision, to sit down and crunch the numbers to churn out a product OR watch the latest episode of Yellowstone.. they WILL choose the latter.

 

[OccamsRazor]

If you type the question in Google one of the answers it gives us because it allows employees to quit on their own so it prevents having to lay off employees. This saves having to pay a severance, unemployment benefits, and simply looks better not having the layoffs.

Pretty sure Google didn't just make that up.

Here is another...

"Companies are returning to the office primarily to foster better collaboration, strengthen company culture, and improve communication through in-person interactions, which are often seen as more effective than remote communication for brainstorming, spontaneous idea sharing, and mentorship opportunities; many believe this can lead to increased productivity and innovation"

Sounds like PR jargon to me...

 

[SamSpade]

Why are corporations pushing so hard for a RTO when apparently, the WFH option has been so productive, lucrative, and successful? (at least according to every WFH person.. EVER)

And I have answered. COVID forced them to send EVERYONE home, including throngs of people whose job would never ever be considered eligible for WFH. Because they HAD to. Once the emergency passed, they’re coming back.

But they STILL have staff working from home. They are still offering jobs to WFH.

Because those jobs can be productive and if properly implemented, very much so.

I almost think we agree.

Maybe I am not being clear on what I am saying and that is the problem... #mybad

No I think I get you.

WFH... AS A WHOLE.. is a failure.

And see, this is where I don’t get what you’re saying. Either it works or it doesn’t.
It’s like saying a certain kind of medical treatment is a failure - except when it isn’t.

Of course there are jobs not suitable for WFH. I have never said otherwise.

What I don’t get is the blanket DOGE idea that all telework is ended and everyone reports five days a week. Heck I haven’t done a five day schedule in twenty years even when I didn’t WFH.

That DOES NOT mean there aren't positions where WFH can be successful. In my humble opinion, a job that is WFH should be just and ONLY that. A position that is 100% capable of being performed remotely. No 2 days a week in office. No week on/week off in office.
People are inherently lazy. When given the opportunity, with little to no supervision, to sit down and crunch the numbers to churn out a product OR watch the latest episode of Yellowstone.. they WILL choose the latter.

And I don’t agree that people are like that, especially with good accountability.

However those who DO will be that way in person.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

Here is another...

"Companies are returning to the office primarily to foster better collaboration, strengthen company culture, and improve communication through in-person interactions, which are often seen as more effective than remote communication for brainstorming, spontaneous idea sharing, and mentorship opportunities; many believe this can lead to increased productivity and innovation"

Sounds like PR jargon to me...

Sounds like the never ending meetings where nothing gets done or decided to me.

 

[SamSpade]

Sounds like the never ending meetings where nothing gets done or decided to me.

Agreed. 30 plus years and nothing I’ve worked with has been that way - unless you hung out with coworkers after work. Which wasn’t much.

My dad used to hold meetings close to lunchtime do as to encourage - haste. People tend not to dawdle when they’re hungry.

 

[GURPS]

I remember my kids doing Zoom meetings for school - and my wife's observation - and other teachers - that way too many skills were forfeited and kid's skills were damaged because of remote learning.

Everyone learns differently .... my daughter now 19, excelled with remote school work .. having sensory issues, not being cooped up in a crowded school building

 

[OccamsRazor]

And I have answered. COVID forced them to send EVERYONE home, including throngs of people whose job would never ever be considered eligible for WFH. Because they HAD to. Once the emergency passed, they’re coming back.

They are? The "emergency" passed almost 2 years ago. If what you say is true... why are we having this discussion? Why is DOGE making their plans?? Why are people whining all over the press and internetz about having to return to the office??

But they STILL have staff working from home. They are still offering jobs to WFH.

Because those jobs can be productive and if properly implemented, very much so.

I almost think we agree.

We do agree on this... IF properly implemented AND actuated.

And see, this is where I don’t get what you’re saying. Either it works or it doesn’t.
It’s like saying a certain kind of medical treatment is a failure - except when it isn’t.

My opinions on this matter is based on personal and professional experience with WFH personnel.
If 5 people get a heart transplant and 2 of them live to 80 and 3 of them die a week later... is that procedure success or failure? To me, that is my personal opinion on the success rate of WFH. Are there good people in the situation? Absolutely! However, the majority are not. That makes the overall a failure.

And I don’t agree that people are like that, especially with good accountability.

However those who DO will be that way in person.

Once again, based on personal experience... I know a GOV guy who worked their a$$ off pre-COVID. Always telling me about his day and what he was completing and achieving. Putting in long hours (9-10 every day) and really hustling. Then.... COVID.
He was put in Telework status practically full-time.
Now, this hustling, over-performing worker regales me with stories about how he did engine swaps in his cars, rebuilt transmissions in his garage, and works on his restoration project daily! When I asked about his work, I was told "Its really not that much work. I have plenty of time to fu@k off and work on my cars. Who is watching me?"

 

[PeoplesElbow]

They are? The "emergency" passed almost 2 years ago. If what you say is true... why are we having this discussion? Why is DOGE making their plans?? Why are people whining all over the press and internetz about having to return to the office??

We do agree on this... IF properly implemented AND actuated.

My opinions on this matter is based on personal and professional experience with WFH personnel.
If 5 people get a heart transplant and 2 of them live to 80 and 3 of them die a week later... is that procedure success or failure? To me, that is my personal opinion on the success rate of WFH. Are there good people in the situation? Absolutely! However, the majority are not. That makes the overall a failure.

Once again, based on personal experience... I know a GOV guy who worked their a$$ off pre-COVID. Always telling me about his day and what he was completing and achieving. Putting in long hours (9-10 every day) and really hustling. Then.... COVID.
He was put in Telework status practically full-time.
Now, this hustling, over-performing worker regales me with stories about how he did engine swaps in his cars, rebuilt transmissions in his garage, and works on his restoration project daily! When I asked about his work, I was told "Its really not that much work. I have plenty of time to fu@k off and work on my cars. Who is watching me?"

That guy either has a lot less work to do now or made up crap to do then.

If the work isn't getting done I'd imagine he would hear it. Maybe his work wasn't/isn't actually necessary.

 

[TPD]

Maybe his work wasn't/isn't actually necessary.

Which we could start a whole 'nother thread on - what govt work is actually necessary? My guess is every govt worker posting on this forum will say their job is necessary....

And DOGE will probably address some of this.

 

[SamSpade]

They are? The "emergency" passed almost 2 years ago. If what you say is true... why are we having this discussion? Why is DOGE making their plans?? Why are people whining all over the press and internetz about having to return to the office??

Remember DOGE hasn’t really thought stuff through yet. They’re already facing roadblocks with some agencies that have agreements with the union that go out to 2029. They have not scrutinized the data. If they had, they wouldn’t be saying stuff like “90% of government workers have been home the last five years “ - when that isn’t even close.

They’re spitballing. OPM put out a report last August. If they’d done their due diligence they’d have read it already.

We do agree on this... IF properly implemented AND actuated.

My opinions on this matter is based on personal and professional experience with WFH personnel.
If 5 people get a heart transplant and 2 of them live to 80 and 3 of them die a week later... is that procedure success or failure? To me, that is my personal opinion on the success rate of WFH. Are there good people in the situation? Absolutely! However, the majority are not. That makes the overall a failure.

If my experience was that out of every WFH, 60% were lazy loafers, I might agree with you.

My experience has been more like 3 out of a hundred. My staff is just four minus our lead who retired. All of them, I’d vouch for personally. The statisticians, the math geeks who do the data modeling - brilliant. You can call them on Teams any time of the workday and you can see their results. The analysts are first rate. While I’ve known goof offs when I was IN THE BUILDING - I don’t know any on our team that are goofing off. I used to think one of them was a bit dull until I realized it was a language barrier.

Once again, based on personal experience... I know a GOV guy who worked their a$$ off pre-COVID. Always telling me about his day and what he was completing and achieving. Putting in long hours (9-10 every day) and really hustling. Then.... COVID.
He was put in Telework status practically full-time.
Now, this hustling, over-performing worker regales me with stories about how he did engine swaps in his cars, rebuilt transmissions in his garage, and works on his restoration project daily! When I asked about his work, I was told "Its really not that much work. I have plenty of time to fu@k off and work on my cars. Who is watching me?"

See, I’ve never seen an ambitious hard working employee turn into a lazy effer. But I have occasionally seen the opposite. Mostly - lazy people stay lazy, hard workers stay hard workers.

 

[vraiblonde]

That makes the overall a failure.

WFH is a failure because of the way government is done. Government employees generally can't be fired and they get promoted on time served over merit. There's no real accountability, an endless piggy bank of our money, no oversight, and they could give a **** if a job gets done or not. It's easy to not care.

"They" say you can't run government like a business, but that's horseshit. Sure you can. The powers that be just don't want to because then they'd have to actually work and be accountable.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

Which we could start a whole 'nother thread on - what govt work is actually necessary? My guess is every govt worker posting on this forum will say their job is necessary....

And DOGE will probably address some of this.

Kind of doubt it.

I see how things work every day, I predict if people are forced to return to the office and management is required to make sure they are working that management will make up things for them to do. These made up things take time away from the actual work that needs done, so to get the actual work done more workers will need hired, or contract support will be hired to supplement them and in the end there are more workers.

I saw this play out in the sequestration, people that suddenly couldn't be on travel were in the office and their managers found things for them to do. These things included changing specs for things that didn't need it, the ever popular reorganization and name changes of departments, and even taking on new types of work that aren't really related to their departments original purpose so then they change the departments name to accommodate this. After sequestration played out some departments ended up larger.

There is a name for this if its military its TEMPA, Temporary Military Pain in the Ass (one of the COs taught me this term), administrations, like commanding officers are temporary, the pendulum always swings back and usually farther.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

Also I think it has a lot to do with treating adults like adults until they prove they can't be.

IMHO thinking people goof off and should be teleworking is the same line of thinking as the democrats have on guns, because some people can't be trusted then nobody should have them.

 

[vraiblonde]

Also I think it has a lot to do with treating adults like adults until they prove they can't be.

According to the news reports I've seen, there are people proving they can't be treated like adults. Which doesn't mean you punish everyone, but it does mean you kick your managers in the ass and force them to start....managing.

 

[LightRoasted]

For your consideration ...

Remember DOGE hasn’t really thought stuff through yet. They’re already facing roadblocks with some agencies that have agreements with the union that go out to 2029. They have not scrutinized the data. If they had, they wouldn’t be saying stuff like “90% of government workers have been home the last five years “ - when that isn’t even close.

They’re spitballing. OPM put out a report last August. If they’d done their due diligence they’d have read it already.

If my experience was that out of every WFH, 60% were lazy loafers, I might agree with you.

My experience has been more like 3 out of a hundred. My staff is just four minus our lead who retired. All of them, I’d vouch for personally. The statisticians, the math geeks who do the data modeling - brilliant. You can call them on Teams any time of the workday and you can see their results. The analysts are first rate. While I’ve known goof offs when I was IN THE BUILDING - I don’t know any on our team that are goofing off. I used to think one of them was a bit dull until I realized it was a language barrier.

See, I’ve never seen an ambitious hard working employee turn into a lazy effer. But I have occasionally seen the opposite. Mostly - lazy people stay lazy, hard workers stay hard workers.

To funny. He unknowingly makes the point to go back to the office. He is posting during working hours while "working" from home. Can't make this shait up.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

For your consideration ...





To funny. He unknowingly makes the point to go back to the office. He is posting during working hours while "working" from home. Can't make this shait up.

I was posting while in the office listening to a useless teams meeting with people on the west coast, so?

 

[SamSpade]

FWIW - Wednesday is my day off.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

FWIW - Wednesday is my day off.

For your consideration.....

can't make this crap up.

 

[LightRoasted]

For your consideration ...

FWIW - Wednesday is my day off.

Alrighty then. Here's a guy, who by his own admission, sits in front of a computer all day long working from home doing computer stuff for the government. And on his day off in the middle of the week, spends all day on the computer posting on forums.

Yeah right.

 

[BOP]

As someone who interacts with PAX personnel every day (or at least tries to) for work purposes and speaking of my own personal experience, I can say that WFH is a bust! Constant flow of unreturned calls and emails, never able to get answers from people, no-shows in meetings, on and on. Local stores PACKED at all hours of the day. I have 3 GOV employees in my neighborhood that are outside their houses doing yard work throughout the work day.

No one will EVER convince me that WFH is more productive. Not from what I have seen, heard, and experienced on a day-to-day basis.

Pfft...that's about par for the course, even when all hands (or most) are working on-site.

Well, not the outside working in the yard thing.

I know during those times where we were working from home, I was way more productive, both wrt my work load and my home stuff.

Basically, I still got up out of bed at 04:00, but I'd work until 22:00 every night. Was it all work-related? No. Was it all home-related? Again, no. It was a mixture of both. The key was: I was able to meet deadlines. Also, I didn't have any worse a time getting ahold of people via email and/or by phone.