Great View on Illegal Immigration

[SamSpade]

Bruzilla -

You're adding a couple conditions to the whole argument that needn't exist.

LEGAL immigrants DO tend to come from the higher ranks of the rest of the world - due partly to our own policy of fast-tracking those with better credentials, and the fact that we attract so many professionals because of the improved chances for advancement, contact with advanced technology and education. It's not for nothing that other countries whine about "brain drain" - LEGAL immigrants ARE their "best and brightest".

On the other hand -

PRESENTLY illegals *are* a drain on the economy, because they GET far more than they put in (which is usually NOTHING) and I don't for a minute buy the notion that they provide any kind of vital service to our country by existing on the fringe. The solution is not to legalize them so they can do this menial labor (a situation that itself would evaporate once they DID become legal - you could never legally pay an American citizen the pittance these people work for). The solution is to kick their heinies back across the Rio Grande.

Further, they are a burden to the Southwest, which is ill-equipped to play nanny to millions of human leeches. It's one thing to admit a few MILLION illegals every year and distribute them across the nation - but they don't do that. They come here and remain in the Southwest. This means instead of a million immigrants coming to the United States, you have half a million a year coming to California.

If we want a situation where we legally provide a means for *migrant* workers to work here, and return home, that is one thing. But illegals don't do us any good. No other nation I know of is so lax in enforcing immigration policy.

 

[teverheart2002]

Not a bad plan but not a Robin Williams plan either. http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/williams.asp

Oops, thanks Ken King, you know it didn't really seem like something that would come from him. I just took it off the email that I received. Still I thought that the content was good no matter who it came from.

 

[2ndAmendment]

And what about the legal immigrant that are paying taxes and into social security? Plus a lot of the legal immigrants are invited to immigrate to the U.S. because they have some vital skill thus enriching the U.S. These people are productive members of society.

As for welfare IMHO I think the problem is mainly people misusing it whether they are citizens or not. Welfare should be a safety net and not as a permanent way of life.

I still think the safety net should be reserved for citizens. That would give legal immigrants an incentive to become citizens and serve as a detraction to those that might seek legal immigration as a means to eventually get into the system.

 

[2ndAmendment]

... In fact, they would all be getting earned income credits and other tax credits that would give them not only all of the taxes they pay in through payroll deduction back, but also a nice chunk of change drawn from the taxes of others. The way things are now, they're paying taxes through deductions (sometimes) but not getting any back....

That is one of the problems with the socialist tax system the feds have instituted. I see nowhere in the Constitution that allows the Congress to pass a law that is for the redistribution of income which is basically what the tax credit system is.

 

[Lenny]

You cannot collect them unless you can find them

Sent to me today:

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it amazing that the US government can track a cow born in Canada almost three years ago, right to the stall where she sleeps in the state of Washington and they tracked her calves to their stalls. But they are unable to locate 11 million illegal aliens wandering around the country. Maybe we should give them all a cow.

 

[Bruzilla]

LEGAL immigrants DO tend to come from the higher ranks of the rest of the world - due partly to our own policy of fast-tracking those with better credentials, and the fact that we attract so many professionals because of the improved chances for advancement, contact with advanced technology and education.

No argument there.

PRESENTLY illegals *are* a drain on the economy, because they GET far more than they put in (which is usually NOTHING) and I don't for a minute buy the notion that they provide any kind of vital service to our country by existing on the fringe. The solution is not to legalize them so they can do this menial labor (a situation that itself would evaporate once they DID become legal - you could never legally pay an American citizen the pittance these people work for). The solution is to kick their heinies back across the Rio Grande.

Here's where you're logic starts to fail. I agree almost 100% with you on the idea that the work habits of illegals would chnage if they became legal. I think that they would be willing to continue to do the work, but they wouldn't be doing it for $2-$3 an hour. They would want, and be entitled to, minimum wage. This would also mean that they would be a member of unions, which would push for more than minimum wage, plus benefits.

So, let's say you're running a lettuce farm, and you're paying five illegals to do the work of ten, and for only $4 an hour with no benefits. Each illegal cuts 30 heads an hour, and you get .40 a head from a distributor, so you're getting $12/hr from each worker, $8 after labor costs. I have no idea what the overhead, watering, seeds, etc., run, but I would guess it's about 75% of quantity, so let's say the farmer is making $4/hr/worker after all is said and done. Now, let's say that the workers become legal and unionized. Now you must have 10 workers per field, you must pay them $10 per hour, plus you have to pay workman's comp, unemployment, and social security insurance for each employee, plus any benefits. What's that going to do to your bottom line? And how expensive does that $1.19 head of lettuce in the store get? $3.00? $5.00? Now think about all the other produce these folks pick. Now what about nannies, housekeepers, drivers, busboys, and other positions that these people fill... what cost impacts are these groups going to generate, and what's the trickle down effect as those costs get passed along to suppliers, jobbers, dealers, and customers?

And once again, since most of these positions result in salaries at or below the poverty level, they aren't going to pay a nickle in taxes, they're going earn income credits, and they're going to be entitled to goverment benefit packages.

Lastly, you talk about kicking all of these people back across the Rio Grande... okay, so we do that. Now who's doing the work? Native Americans who we have to pay $15/hr? Maybe we can get bunches of high-school kids who can't handle working at McDonalds to spend hours doing back-breaking work in the hot sun? Yeah right!

But illegals don't do us any good. No other nation I know of is so lax in enforcing immigration policy.

Thanks to illegals, you have enough money to live a decent life. Imagine how your life would be if about 80% of the food you buy doubled or trippled in price, or the price of your clothing trippled in price? How about if the IRS suddenly had to pay out $3,000-$4,000 to one or two million immigrants, and maybe cover them with medicaid/medicare benefits? I know my life wouldn't be as good if my costs of living and taxes went up that much.

Do illegals get more tax-payer funded benefits than they put in? ABSOLUTELY! But would they be putting more tax dollars into the till of they were legal? ABSOLUTELY NOT. And would be paying more for most everything if every worker were legal and properly compensated? ABSOLUTELY As for the southwest I can only say "sucks to be you."

 

[teverheart2002]

Sent to me today:

I have this up on my wall at work.

 

[Bruzilla]

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it amazing that the US government can track a cow born in Canada almost three years ago, right to the stall where she sleeps in the state of Washington and they tracked her calves to their stalls. But they are unable to locate 11 million illegal aliens wandering around the country. Maybe we should give them all a cow.

It's easy to track cows that have entered the country legally, and have left a paper trail behind. Now, let's see the government track a cow that wanders across the border.

 

[Triggerfish]

I still think the safety net should be reserved for citizens. That would give legal immigrants an incentive to become citizens and serve as a detraction to those that might seek legal immigration as a means to eventually get into the system.

I don't think it would even be an issue if so many people weren't misusing it. Even a skilled worker can be out of a job if there is a large lay off or the company goes out of business.

Also what makes you think those legal immigrants aren't in the process of getting their citizenship? The process takes a long time. Plus they have to take a test that a large percentage of native born citizen wouldn't even be able to pass.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I don't think it would even be an issue if so many people weren't misusing it. Even a skilled worker can be out of a job if there is a large lay off or the company goes out of business.

Also what makes you think those legal immigrants aren't in the process of getting their citizenship? The process takes a long time. Plus they have to take a test that a large percentage of native born citizen wouldn't even be able to pass.

I just think citizenship is the correct delineation. It is not gray. You either are or you are not a citizen of the U.S. No fudge factor. No discretionary wiggle room for some bureaucrat to work the system for someone.

You are right about the test. Have you seen the test that high school seniors had to take to graduate at the turn of the century? Most college graduates couldn't pass it today. Our education system has really dumbed down the population.

 

[2ndAmendment]

....

Thanks to illegals, you have enough money to live a decent life. Imagine how your life would be if about 80% of the food you buy doubled or trippled in price, or the price of your clothing trippled in price? How about if the IRS suddenly had to pay out $3,000-$4,000 to one or two million immigrants, and maybe cover them with medicaid/medicare benefits? I know my life wouldn't be as good if my costs of living and taxes went up that much.

Do illegals get more tax-payer funded benefits than they put in? ABSOLUTELY! But would they be putting more tax dollars into the till of they were legal? ABSOLUTELY NOT. And would be paying more for most everything if every worker were legal and properly compensated? ABSOLUTELY As for the southwest I can only say "sucks to be you."

The wrong, no matter what the benefits, does not become right. The word illegal has a meaning. If someone is here illegally, they should not be here.

Again, the arguments point up a problem in the federal government. Where does the Constitution give the Federal government the right to regulate wages? Rhetorical. It does not. The minimum wage is an illusion. The minimum wage, no matter how much you make it, $10, $20, $30, $100, $1000, pick a number per hour will never be a living wage, because it is the minimum. By definition, the minimum is on the bottom. Prices rise to absorb all hikes in the minimum wage and then some. About a year after a raise in the minimum wage, prices have increased so that the people getting minimum wage actual buying power has decreased and they are worse off than they were before. Not only that, because of economic compression, people that did not get a comparable percentage raise, more people move down the economic ladder. The minimum wage is a political farce to buy votes from people that don't know they are being scammed.

If wages were allowed to be free market where workers were paid for their skill level instead of some artificial floor, then the "need" for illegal workers would not exist.

 

[Bustem' Down]

California's deal is much more than immigration. We have just as many illegals in Texas as they do there and that state has never been in any kind of real finacial trouble like California sees

 

[Triggerfish]

You are right about the test. Have you seen the test that high school seniors had to take to graduate at the turn of the century? Most college graduates couldn't pass it today. Our education system has really dumbed down the population.

You're talking about the 19th/20th turn of cetury as opposed to the last turn of the century? Yeah, I'm old enough that when I hear turn of the century I think of the early 1900s. But you don't even have to go back that far to realize how dumbed down the education system has become. Too many A's in colleges. In many universities many students expect to get an A if they do all their work. Plus I remember when I was going through high school an A was a minimum of 94 not 90 as it is today.

 

[T.Rally]

Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled...whatever.

Illegal immigration creates an underclass of workers, afraid and vulnerable to exploitation. Current immigration laws can also hinder companies from finding willing workers. The visas now available do not allow employers to fill jobs in many key sectors of our economy. Workers risk their lives in dangerous and illegal border crossings and are consigned to live their lives in the shadows.

Bottom line is immigrants are going to come, legally or illegally, on a 747 or in the forsaken hell of a trucking container, because the nation's wealth is an irresistible magnet when minimum wage and no benefits are a step up the ladder. Employment like that is here for the taking because, on those terms, few Americans will swab a Holiday Inn toilet or mop a restaurant kitchen - even in this so-called jobless recovery.

Closing our borders and deportation are not feasible economical solutions.

 

[vraiblonde]

I must say, with Independence Day looming, that it feels wonderful to live in a country that people are trying to get into, not flee from.

 

[Triggerfish]

I must say, with Independence Day looming, that it feels wonderful to live in a country that people are trying to get into, not flee from.

I don't know why your post reminded me of this but I transfered NAS PAX last year, before that I was stationed in Japan and I remember seeing a lot of illegals there too....Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, Arabs, Russians, Canadians, British, Americans........but mostly Filipinos.

Random thought

 

[Tonio]

I must say, with Independence Day looming, that it feels wonderful to live in a country that people are trying to get into, not flee from.

Do illegals get more tax-payer funded benefits than they put in? ABSOLUTELY! But would they be putting more tax dollars into the till of they were legal? ABSOLUTELY NOT. And would be paying more for most everything if every worker were legal and properly compensated? ABSOLUTELY

I agree. I guess for me, illegal immigration has an emotional component that has nothing to do with its economic benefits. I don't feel comfortable with large numbers of illegals in America, no matter where they're from or why they came here. They're not paying taxes, so they don't have an economic investment in America. And since they don't have citizenship, they don't have an emotional investment in America.

 

[Bruzilla]

Bottom line is immigrants are going to come, legally or illegally, on a 747 or in the forsaken hell of a trucking container, because the nation's wealth is an irresistible magnet when minimum wage and no benefits are a step up the ladder.

It isn't a nation's wealth that attracts them, it's the opportunity to attain wealth that does.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Closing our borders and deportation are not feasible economical solutions.

They are if you also tighten up the benefits and do away with the idea that the minimum wage must be a living wage which it will never be.

 

[Bruzilla]

The wrong, no matter what the benefits, does not become right. The word illegal has a meaning. If someone is here illegally, they should not be here.

Again, the arguments point up a problem in the federal government. Where does the Constitution give the Federal government the right to regulate wages?

There are dozens of things that most people do every day that are illegal. We speed... illegal, we change lanes without signalling... illegal, we travel in the passing lane... illegal, we don't cross at intersections... illegal, we commit sadomy... illegal in some states, etc. I like to think of myself as a law-abiding person, but I speed, and if someone were to come up to me and say "hey, I found this German machinepistol that my Grandpa brought back from WWII, and I'll sell it to you for $100", I wouldn't start telling him about how the gun was illegal and needed to be turned into the BATF... I would be running for the ATM. I broke more laws, rules, and regulations while in the military, for the sake of expediency and completing missions, than I can count. So the argument that what's wrong can never be right is invalid. I think for most people, what's "right" is what meets their needs at the time provided the risk is minimal.

I don't see the illegal immigrant situation as one of government-induced job classes, but rather as the natural outcome of market forces. If you want to be at the top of the corporate ladder, there are things that you have to do to get there. If you want to be a stooge working the same job in some cubicle for 30 years, there are things that you need to do to get there. If you've got nothing but the clothes on your back, and you want to earn enough money to feed you and your family, there are things that you need to do to get there. Not everyone can be a CEO, and not everyone will be a dirt-poor imigrant worker. You just have to play the hand your dealt the best that you can, i.e., economic natural selection. We need CEOs just as much as we need cubicle dwellers and people who will pick crops for next to nothing. That's how our economy works, and doing away with any of those three tiers would cause the economy to collapse.

So ultimately, what is "right" is what makes the economy work. That may be technically illegal, but it sure beats boasting about how proper and law-abiding your society is as you enter a genuine depression.