Greek Gov Ready to 'Shave' Bank Accounts

Larry Gude

Strung Out
IMHO ... WAR is coming back to Europe ... next 25 yrs

That's certainly possible and historically probable. However, technology, the interconnectedness of economies, the liberalization of societies, it's gonna be pretty tough to get a war going. People don't wanna fight anymore and the demographics aren't there to support it if they did.

The issue was and is Islam; they're having lots of babies. They've got the bodies to spare.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
However, technology, the interconnectedness of economies, the liberalization of societies, it's gonna be pretty tough to get a war going. People don't wanna fight anymore and the demographics aren't there to support it if they did.


Explain Russia then ? or are they separate from the EU discussion in your opinion ?
I hear Neo Nazi's are on the rise in Europe again

.... I am sure the Greeks are: FU Germany and the EU you ain't the boss of us
... ok I am sure Greece is not going to invade Germany ...


but as economies collapse ... what your neighbor has suddenly looks worth the risk

maybe it will just be anarchy
 
Greek 2-year bonds (although they aren't being openly traded now) are at about a 50% yield while 10-years are at about 18%. That means the former are getting less than 50 cents on the dollar and the latter are getting less than 35 cents.

Anyway, banks are set to remain closed for at least a couple more days. I heard one CEO say that his employees are asking him not to pay them, to just keep their pay for now rather than depositing it in their accounts. That's becuase (1) they don't know if they'd be able to withdraw it anyway and (2) they're worried that if the situation with banks continues to deteriorate there will be a so-called bail-in. That's where part of people's bank account balances basically get stolen - like 20 or 30 percent over a certain balance gets forfeited so that the banks remain solvent. And the ECB took action yesterday that won't help on that front, they increased the discount they are taking on collateral put up by Greek banks - meaning those banks could have even less money available.

So they voted no and now they may face a bail-in, where parts of their balances are just taken. But then, I suspect most of the people that had balances to be taken voted yes rather than no. It was probably the people that felt they had nothing to lose that tended to vote no. I don't think they fully appreciated what it might mean to truly have nothing to lose, that things could get worse for them.

Yesterday I heard what may be the most apropos use of the drink the Kool-Aid meme that I've heard in a long time. Talking about how government leaders had encouraged the people to vote no, promising that if they did those leaders would get a new, much better, deal within 48 hours and get the banks back open, Stathis Kalyvas said "they really bought that message, they drank the Kool Aid."

I guess we'll soon see whether he was right, whether the rest of Europe holds firm.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
Explain Russia then ? or are they separate from the EU discussion in your opinion ?
I hear Neo Nazi's are on the rise in Europe again

.... I am sure the Greeks are: FU Germany and the EU you ain't the boss of us
... ok I am sure Greece is not going to invade Germany ...


but as economies collapse ... what your neighbor has suddenly looks worth the risk

maybe it will just be anarchy


And then there is China....

http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/chinese-chaos-worse-than-greece/story-fnu2pycd-1227430761673
 
H

Hodr

Guest
A nation of 11 million plus people can't be supported by 155 people working, especially when only 80 of those people are doing something other than make-work type stuff. They think they should be able to live 75 years while only working for 2 of them, and only working 15 hours a week when they do. Hopefully they're about to get a long overdue introduction to reality, how unpleasant an introduction it will be is up to them. It sure seems like they want it to be as nasty an introduction as it can be. So be it. Please, please, please to their creditors: They're bound and determined to dig their own grave, for all ours sake let them go ahead and jump into it so that we can begin to put this silliness behind us. It's time the world, and the rest of Europe in particular, tells the Greek people to go #### themselves.

Tilted, man I thought you were better informed than this. I agree with you on the course of action they should have taken, and with how the international community and the banks should deal with Greece, but you don't have to resort to rampant hyperbole to get the point across.

First, Greeks work longer hours than most (possibly all) other European nations. They are much less productive (GDP wise) because a great deal of the work is busy-work or related to civil/social services (police and fire being big), but they aren't working only 15 hours a week.

Second, their average retirement age is 61.7. Higher than those supposedly model economies they keep being compared to, Germany and France. They have a lower minimum retirement age of 53, but almost no one makes use of that retirement age because the pension received is a pittance.

And they actually have quite high taxes, they just allow rampant tax evasion and cheating to occur.

The real answer is for them to fix the issues with their taxes (actually collect the damn money owed), and to try and reduce the amount of redundant civil work while investing in actual productive activities.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Yesterday I heard what may be the most apropos use of the drink the Kool-Aid meme that I've heard in a long time. Talking about how government leaders had encouraged the people to vote no, promising that if they did those leaders would get a new, much better, deal within 48 hours and get the banks back open, Stathis Kalyvas said "they really bought that message, they drank the Kool Aid."

I guess we'll soon see whether he was right, whether the rest of Europe holds firm.


Right but you know the Kewl Aid thing is about group suicide, yes? As such, that's not what Greece is facing. If they'll just come together, they can change the world! For the more better!
 
Tilted, man I thought you were better informed than this. I agree with you on the course of action they should have taken, and with how the international community and the banks should deal with Greece, but you don't have to resort to rampant hyperbole to get the point across.

First, Greeks work longer hours than most (possibly all) other European nations. They are much less productive (GDP wise) because a great deal of the work is busy-work or related to civil/social services (police and fire being big), but they aren't working only 15 hours a week.

Second, their average retirement age is 61.7. Higher than those supposedly model economies they keep being compared to, Germany and France. They have a lower minimum retirement age of 53, but almost no one makes use of that retirement age because the pension received is a pittance.

And they actually have quite high taxes, they just allow rampant tax evasion and cheating to occur.

The real answer is for them to fix the issues with their taxes (actually collect the damn money owed), and to try and reduce the amount of redundant civil work while investing in actual productive activities.

Of course I was using hyperbole, I was intentionally making my hyperbole so hyperbolic that there'd be no doubt that that was what I was doing. Also, that so much of what they do is make-work - or busy-work as you might call it - is one of the points I've been making. And one of the big problems is that so little of the population does work, and of those that do work too high a portion of them work for the government. The bottom line is that, collectively, they aren't as productive as they need to be to support the collective lifestyle they want. So that lifestyle is financed by others. That's the point I've made over and over, sometimes quite flippantly, yes. I. If that's somehow wrong, I'm sorry.

They are unable to pay back money that they owe. That's their issue, not a problem made by others. So whatever they have to do to pay that money back - or to get others to agree to give them more time to pay it back, and further aid in the meantime - they should do. That means being collectively more productive - more people working, working to later ages, working more hours, less of them doing make-work - and collectively enjoying a lesser lifestyle. Being indignant about being asked to do such things makes them, collectively, an ass. Sure, the austerity they are being asked to implement will further hurt their economy, and make it weaker well into the future. But that's the bed they made for themselves. They danced the tune now they should pay the piper. If they don't like the terms they're being offered, then okay - just pay the money they owe. But they can't, so any help they are offered - any adjustments to the terms of their debts - should be gratefully welcomed. Or they can just screw themselves even worse like they have, with their only hope now being for the rest of Europe to cave to their ingratitude.

I hope you don't think I really thought - or meant to assert - that the typical Greek worker (that actually does work) works only 15 hours a week. Or that there were only 155 people working in the whole country? Like I said, I made sure that it was clear I was being hyperbolic.

As for pension payments, they represent the biggest part of Greece's economy other than tourism - something like 20% of it. (I can try to find a more precise portion for you if you'd like it, but that's close enough for my point). So a fair number of Greeks are collecting pensions, are retired.
 
Right but you know the Kewl Aid thing is about group suicide, yes? As such, that's not what Greece is facing. If they'll just come together, they can change the world! For the more better!

Yeah, that's why I thought the usage there might be apropos.

And how is refusing to be accountable for your actions, and refusing to make changes that experience has demonstrated need to be made, going to make for a better world?
 
Now we're talking!!

"But the bottom line is this: Greece is bankrupt and should be allowed to declare bankruptcy. People and countries go bankrupt. Government leaders break promises. Creditors who foolishly lent to an insolvent nation should deal with those repercussions."

:popcorn:


Europe should let them, in essence, declare bankruptcy. It just shouldn't go back to business as usual with them, especially since they are unwilling to be realistic with regard to their work product and lifestyle.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Europe should let them, in essence, declare bankruptcy. It just shouldn't go back to business as usual with them, especially since they are unwilling to be realistic with regard to their work product and lifestyle.

They'll be willing when it is their ideas. I would LOVE to see them uncouple from the global too big to fail model and for that model to lose all leverage and control over someone and then we'll just see what we see. We're accepting a presumption; that Greece isn't productive enough. Enough for whom? Based on what? Greece will figure it out if they have to. If not, Too Big To Fail wins again.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
Greece will figure it out if they have to.

So you are counting on Greece being practically unique in the annals of modern history..a history that is otherwise jam packed full of example states that could never "figure it out". mmmkay...

I've already reached the conclusion that the same process that has destroyed Greece has already passed the point of no return right here in the US.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Yeah, that's why I thought the usage there might be apropos.

And how is refusing to be accountable for your actions, and refusing to make changes that experience has demonstrated need to be made, going to make for a better world?

I reject the premise that we had a better world before. Too Big To Fail has distorted the hell out of everything and most people see it as those most responsible for the problems as being rewarded for it and everyone else gets the bill and responsibilities. Look at us. How many people you hear the last 6 years complain that QE healed their 401ks...and that it was wrong? Greeks, us, who should really have to pay for it? And why? What, really, makes it so that Greece should have to pay for anything? How come they don't get bailed out as much as it takes?
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
So you are counting on Greece being practically unique in the annals of modern history..a history that is otherwise jam packed full of example states that could never "figure it out". mmmkay... .

If NO ONE lends them any more money, they have no choice. Right?

But that won't happen because the Goldman's of the world will see opportunity, buy off the pols necessary, go in, make another killing, leave, and so it goes.

This could be a great moment of change away from the Too Big To Fail model. or, we could just keep what we've been doing?
 
They'll be willing when it is their ideas. I would LOVE to see them uncouple from the global too big to fail model and for that model to lose all leverage and control over someone and then we'll just see what we see. We're accepting a presumption; that Greece isn't productive enough. Enough for whom? Based on what? Greece will figure it out if they have to. If not, Too Big To Fail wins again.

Of course they will figure it out, they will have to. That's the point of what some of us are arguing for. If they have to fend for themselves, they will fend for themselves. It will be painful as #### for a while, but they'll have no choice but to change their ways. That's what we're advocating for rather than just kicking the can down the road and facilitating - encouraging - more of the same irresponsible behavior.

What I'm suggesting is more like the opposite of what we did here (not in particulars, as the issues were somewhat different, but in big picture philosophy). What you're suggesting is more of the same, big picture philosophy-wise.

A nation can't go on forever with too small a portion of its people working, and too small a portion doing productive work or working hard (as Hodr accurately suggests that some of them do). It can't go on importing so much of its life necessities without finding a way to produce enough of value to export. It can't do those things unless it either accepts a lower standard of living or has someone to finance the imbalance. That's reality. The Greek people, as a whole, aren't going to change to conform to reality unless they have to, they've made that pretty clear now. So leave them be and let them figure it out for themselves, let them learn basic life lessons the hard way. That seems to be what it's going to take.

And then you have other nations in Europe in similar situations. They surely don't need to see evidence that you can go on defying reality indefinitely. It may turn out that they have to learn basic life lessons the hard way as well, but it's all but certain they'll have to learn them that way - while doing more damage to Europe and the world's economies in the process - if the rest of Europe caves in to Greece's... I don't even know what to call it anymore, anything that would do Greece's collective attitude justice would exceed my daily profanity limitation.
 
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