I'm wondering if Dr. TJ Krugman's self-imposed limit of one comment per thread is making her head explode right about now.
Greek Gov Ready to 'Shave' Bank Accounts
- Thread starter GURPS
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Larry Gude
Strung Out
Krugman is a hoot. He loves going on and on about how everyone was wrong about the Stimulus etc and completely leaves out QE, a full 6% annual boost to the economy for how many years?
Tilted
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In the long run? Sure. But in the meantime, without a new deal and continuing help, they'd be screwed. They'll be much worse off than they would have had had they accepted the last deal.
Just so we're clear, though I hope I've already been fairly clear on this - I'm hoping they do leave the EU, either they get kicked out (more likely) or decide they want to leave. I hope that because I think it will be better for the global economy and, to some extent, our own economy. In the long run it'll probably be better for Greece as well, but as I'm no hater I'm okay with that.
When it comes to the EU more generally: Unified monetary policy coupled with disjointed fiscal policy is a recipe for disaster, or at least a big, unfixable mess.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
In the long run? Sure. But in the meantime, without a new deal and continuing help, they'd be screwed. They'll be much worse off than they would have had had they accepted the last deal.
Just so we're clear, though I hope I've already been fairly clear on this - I'm hoping they do leave the EU, either they get kicked out (more likely) or decide they want to leave. I hope that because I think it will be better for the global economy and, to some extent, our own economy. In the long run it'll probably be better for Greece as well, but as I'm no hater I'm okay with that.
When it comes to the EU more generally: Unified monetary policy coupled with disjointed fiscal policy is a recipe for disaster, or at least a big, unfixable mess.
Do you think Greece out, on their own or with help, will be the first domino and end the EU? Do you think it should?
Tilted
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I wanted to return to this. I've heard some people making the point that the Greek people voted with their pride not their pockets. I think that's DOB right. It's about not being told what to do, which is fine. But now you have to pay the price for that pride (I hope, meaning I hope Europe doesn't cave). But the only reason you were in a position to possibly have to sacrifice your pride for your pocket, to have to let others tell you what to do, is because of how you had yourself behaved and the bed you had made for yourself.
There's another subtext that I need to look into. I heard someone talking about the origin of the OXI (meaning no) meme that political leaders used to appeal to the emotions of the Greek people. They said that it links back to World War II when the Greeks stood up to Germany (or was it Italy) and refused to surrender. They celebrated their successful defiance chanting OXI!, or so the story goes according to this person I heard talking about it. So Greek leaders made that emotional connection to fire up Greeks and empower their sense of defiance. I'm gonna have to read a little about that history, but the story makes sense to me.
Tilted
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No, not anytime soon. It may lead to some other nations leaving; but then again, seeing what Greece goes through might encourage some of them to be more accepting of whatever the rest of the EU asks of them. That door could swing either way, depending on how much of a headache Greece leaving caused for the rest of the EU. But I would expect the stronger members of the EU to stay together for the foreseeable future.
Should it? Who is to say? I think as a matter of long-term fiscal propriety, the EU is a mistake. It's in that tweener zone (in terms of the degree of unification between member nations) which, more often than not, means more of the bad from both ends of the spectrum than the good from both ends. More often than not, when things try to be a little of this and a little of that, they end up being nothing worth a ####. There are of course exceptions.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
See, but that is THE issue. It's one thing if I choose to pick cotton every single day and my choices in life mad it so. It is quite another if I'm held there by you and, in MY view, the Too Big To Fail model is seen as, if not force, then certainly coercion and, yeah, getting coerced is supposed to be our own fault but if I see you get out of serving your master, getting away with your mistakes, Too Big To Fail, you can damn well bet it's gonna make me have a problem with it. Too Big To Fail's greatest weakness is that there is NO sense of shared sacrifice, no sense of being in it together.
Looked at another way, if you're my master yet you're out their toiling with me every day and suffering the same work, that's a whole other issue, too.
Pride's not always a bad thing.
Tilted
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Certainly not, pride can be a great thing - so long as we have what it takes, self-awareness and confidence mostly, to make it our servant rather than let it be our master. If you're secure enough, it will settle for being the former; if you're insecure, it will demand to be the latter.
Beyond that, I think you may be seeing too much similarity between Greece's situation and what happened here with Too Big To Fail. The Greeks made their own bed, others are just offering them ways out of their predicament - by, e.g., continuing to give them financial assistance - albeit with substantial conditions. If Greece doesn't want to accept the conditions, so be it - but that doesn't make the offers of help, whatever conditions are attached to them, some bad things done to the poor Greeks. They're free to find their own way out (but if they were going to do that, they'd probably have been better off going that route from the onset of their crisis) - which may include telling their creditors to suck it.
So... Did you see what I said earlier about the possibility of a so-called bail-in, like what they had in Cyprus but possibly applying to accounts with smaller balances? Did that get your blood boiling?
Larry Gude
Strung Out
So... Did you see what I said earlier about the possibility of a so-called bail-in, like what they had in Cyprus but possibly applying to accounts with smaller balances? Did that get your blood boiling?
Yes I saw and no, no blood boiling. My view on this is biased because I know some Greeks and they are different cats. If unity is needed here, it's them. If a mono-culture is the way to come together and deal with this, it's them. So, shared pain, unity. I'm not saying they will do it. I'm just thinking they're a pretty good bet.
PeoplesElbow
Well-Known Member
But aren't you saying Greece is too big to fail?
So do I. We've supported the build and operation of numerous Greek high-speed ferries over the last 25 years, serving routes to Italy as well as the many (drop dead gorgeous) Greek islands. "Those guys" are not the ones so dependent on the government for their survival.
Well..at least they weren't when I worked with them.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Don't mean to be. In my argument they'd be fixing their problems their way.
PeoplesElbow
Well-Known Member
No they are not, they are asking someone else for a temporary fix that will in time make the problem bigger.
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I'm honestly amazed. All they a "doing" is trying to make everyone else pay for their ridiculously unsustainable gravy train. Pure and simple.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Well I'm with tilted: cut em off.
There has already been at least three or four years worth of those!!
Tilted
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Yes I saw and no, no blood boiling. My view on this is biased because I know some Greeks and they are different cats. If unity is needed here, it's them. If a mono-culture is the way to come together and deal with this, it's them. So, shared pain, unity. I'm not saying they will do it. I'm just thinking they're a pretty good bet.
Sure, Greek people aren't bad by their nature. They aren't all lazy bums. I don't mean to suggest that they are. But as a nation they have become lazy and under-productive, they don't collectively put in enough work. You remind me of another point that's perhaps worth making, a lot of Greeks - ambitious and industrious people - have left Greece to make their way elsewhere. In part that's because of how hard it is to successfully do business there - because of, e.g., regulations and taxation. Some of the best among them have chosen to leave there, they need to create an environment where those kinds of people are encouraged to come back home and help build Greek industry.
Unfortunately, the rest of Europe has basically already caved.
RPMDAD
Well-Known Member
Here is a pm from one of my best friends who is Greek and lives in Greece this was from July during the last elections. He talks about their political parties in it, he inherited his fathers house who was into home construction, and his dad worked well into his 60's. He is an international kind of of high tech dude, and does a lot of his work in Southeast Asia is is on the road sometimes 2 - 3 weeks per month. I have also read posts from him, where there is no real love lost between Greece and Germany going back to World War II. I lived in Greece for 3 years, and love the country, the people and their history. I always thought it was a mistake when they joined the EU. This is more of an observation on their political party's than on their total Govt. mismanagement .
well Jim always in Greece is the left and the right wing, and it seems that the left finally won the elections this time.
I had to vote for them because in the past 5 years I have lost 1/2 of my salary in taxes. It is a good thing I own my house otherwise it would be coming back to the states for something.
We do have 7 different parties including the comunist party (it is almost like the one that won the elections but alot hard core communists) and on the other end we we have the extreme right wing that is the hitler followers and anti foreigner party.
####..... too much for a small country but I try to keep away from those MFs and drink my wine.
Hippei power, this is what I vote for.... peace love and understanding ..... and a little Irish clover so time goes by better (I wish).
well Jim always in Greece is the left and the right wing, and it seems that the left finally won the elections this time.
I had to vote for them because in the past 5 years I have lost 1/2 of my salary in taxes. It is a good thing I own my house otherwise it would be coming back to the states for something.
We do have 7 different parties including the comunist party (it is almost like the one that won the elections but alot hard core communists) and on the other end we we have the extreme right wing that is the hitler followers and anti foreigner party.
####..... too much for a small country but I try to keep away from those MFs and drink my wine.
Hippei power, this is what I vote for.... peace love and understanding ..... and a little Irish clover so time goes by better (I wish).
Ha ha ha ha haaa!! Some good karma...
http://freebeacon.com/blog/flashback-clinton-son-in-law-bet-big-on-greek-recovery/
http://freebeacon.com/blog/flashback-clinton-son-in-law-bet-big-on-greek-recovery/
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Smugly, I submit sound reason and impeccable logic;
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/business/economy/germanys-debt-history-echoed-in-greece.html?_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/business/economy/germanys-debt-history-echoed-in-greece.html?_r=0