I hope you were being sarcastic. "painfull auterity" my sorry arse....
Greek Gov Ready to 'Shave' Bank Accounts
- Thread starter GURPS
- Start date
I hope you were being sarcastic. "painfull auterity" my sorry arse....
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Dude, you read the thing? Writing off debt leads to growth. Not only does it make sense on paper, but what actually happens backs it up. "Painful' is subjective. And that's the whole point; Greece was never gonna be top dog in the EU and was always gonna be a candidate for being one of the problem children. So, glory be, what we got here? So, in the mean time, down turn, the big boys loan money to the sick kid so the big boys can get paid back and, the whole time, they all know they won't ever be able to handle the 'vig'.
Write the #### off and let's get moving again. Or, keep on leaving the big banks in charge and hope for better results?
Tilted
..
It is sound to some degree, though I'd say there's a relevant difference between war-incurred (meaning, winner-assigned) debt and systemic - because of how we run our nation and how we live our lives - debt.
But that's of little import when it comes to my position, because my argument has never been that the rest of Europe shouldn't give Greece some debt relief. It has been that the rest of Europe - in return for continuing to give Greece the financial aid it needs - should demand austerity from Greece, that that is reasonable, that Greeks need to come to grips with the reality that the problem is they don't do enough work, they aren't collectively productive enough, to support the collective lifestyle they want. They have to change, they have to not be so spoiled - so the rest of Europe has to stop indulging them and facilitating their disconnect from reality.
No doubt the austerity that the rest of Europe has demanded has made Greece's financial situation even worse. But that's not the rest of Europe's fault, that's Greece's fault and the fault of their previous policies and behavior. They caused the problem, and it was reasonable for Europe - when Greece kept asking for assistance - to say, you're gonna have to sacrifice your own well being to help pay us back and to demonstrate that you get it now, that you have to change in order to someday be able to pay your own way, that we don't owe you perpetual support and accommodation of your productivity - lifestyle imbalance.
The problem is, in response to the declining economic conditions brought on by the austerity that the rest of Europe demanded, Greece went and elected an even more socialist (and a more defiant) government - as though the problem was giving it to the rest of Europe rather than their own previous policies and behavior. They still didn't get it, and they very much need to get it or else it wouldn't matter how much of their debt was forgiven, they'd continue to create the same problems for themselves and need the same aid from others. They went back and doubled down on the failures of their past instead of identifying them as the root cause of their current pain.
You can fix the damage someone does to their car, through their incompetent driving, as often and for as long as you want - and pick up the dime yourself. Most humans are charitable by their nature I think, they want to help others. But at some point, that incompetent driver needs to get it through their head that they are an incompetent driver and that they need to make changes. Or else, repairs made at someone else's experience or not, they are going to continue to cause damage to their car - and someday they may do more damage than can be repaired or than someone else is willing to repair for them. Maybe the right thing to do, at some point, is to stop paying for their repairs and let them face the natural consequences of being a ####ty driver.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Just how do you propose to humiliate them and move this whole mess forward amicably?
Intellectually, you're clearly aware of the culpability of other parties to this mess and have said, clearly, you're happy for them to pay for their mistakes yet you keep coming back to this as though Greece is the primary problem here and they, in my view, are not. They were, are and always will be one of the weaker partners in this thing and they were never gonna respond well to finger wagging and moral lecturing to their whorish ways from their john pals. :shrug:
Tilted
..
Dude, you read the thing? Writing off debt leads to growth. Not only does it make sense on paper, but what actually happens backs it up. "Painful' is subjective. And that's the whole point; Greece was never gonna be top dog in the EU and was always gonna be a candidate for being one of the problem children. So, glory be, what we got here? So, in the mean time, down turn, the big boys loan money to the sick kid so the big boys can get paid back and, the whole time, they all know they won't ever be able to handle the 'vig'.
Write the #### off and let's get moving again. Or, keep on leaving the big banks in charge and hope for better results?
See my post above as it makes my point more fully. But, yes, sometimes writing off debt leads to growth and, more to the point here, responsible behavior. But sometimes it does not. It depends in part on the nature of the debt, why it was incurred and why it isn't feasible or easy to pay it back. If it's systemic, because of how someone leads their life, just writing it off is more likely to exacerbate the core problem than lead to lasting positive results.
The core problem here isn't the debt that Greece currently has, it's the way that Greece as a whole conducts its affairs and how Greeks collectively live their lives. That's what needs fixing. If forgiving their debt would do that, then maybe other parties should consider it. I see no reason to think it would and lots of reason to be quite sure it wouldn't. The question, as it usually is, i: What is the core problem, and then how do we fix it? It's Greece's question to ask and answer of course, but to the extent they are asking others for help, it is completely reasonable for those others to ask it as well.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
There you go again! We agree let them be, yes? Swallow the losses and move on and leave them to the mess they choose to live? Yes? You can't, we can't, be making these demands of them on such a personal level so that some mega banks get covered, again. Loans mean risk. Risk means sometimes their are loses. Let it go, says I. Greece can then fix their own mess their own way.
Tilted
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Just how do you propose to humiliate them and move this whole mess forward amicably?
Then we just disagree at a core, philosophical I guess, level. When it comes to Greece's situation, I think they very much are the primary problem - they, more so than anything or anyone else, are responsible for it. They don't do enough work, collectively, to support the lifestyle they collectively live. They don't produce as much as they consume, and that's an unsustainable model. What causes that? A number of things I suppose, in part it's the consequence of bad public policy. In part, you could argue, it's that others have indulged their bad behavior; but it's still their bad behavior. Regardless, it's the core problem that needs to be addressed. This isn't about evil big banks, this is about a (collectively) lazy and spoiled population.
They need to get the message. No, it isn't the rest of the world's job (or, in other circumstances, prerogative) to make sure they get the message or learn their lesson. But they continue to ask others for help, so that makes it others' business. In helping them without demanding they face reality, others would be preventing that reality from doing what it does and teaching them the lessons they need to learn. Others are insulating them from the message that reality is trying very hard to send them. I'm suggesting that those others should just get out of the way and let the Universe do what it does, they've already tried helping and it hasn't worked - Greece is still in denial of the reality that's in front of its face. If the rest of Europe would do that, Greeks (in the long run) and the rest of Europe (probably sooner) would be better off for it.
I am suggesting that Europe should, in effect, write off that debt as you are suggesting. I'm just saying it should then, in light of Greece's behavior and unwillingness to identify the real causes of its problems and demonstrated resistance to making needed changes, stop paying Greece's way. If it doesn't, if it continues to finance Greece's irresponsible behavior, there's little reason to think it will get paid back anything it loans Greece going forward and, perhaps more importantly, little reason to think Greece will do better for itself.
Tilted
..
There you go again! We agree let them be, yes? Swallow the losses and move on and leave them to the mess they choose to live? Yes? You can't, we can't, be making these demands of them on such a personal level so that some mega banks get covered, again. Loans mean risk. Risk means sometimes their are loses. Let it go, says I. Greece can then fix their own mess their own way.
That's what I've been arguing from the beginning. Walk away and let them make their own way. But don't forgive their debts and then keep doing the same thing - facilitating their irresponsible behavior - which is what Greece wants the rest of Europe to do and what the rest of Europe, it now seems likely, will do.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
If they behaved as you'd like them to, as a matter of course (acted like Germans, perhaps?) they'd have never borrowed the money in the first place, yes? They'd be lending, right? I think you're expressing a paternalism that doesn't go well presuming the goal is amicable resolution.
If you want them to be 'taught a lesson' we do disagree as they are certainly not the only ones in need of a 'lesson' if that is the goal here. To me, this is nothing more than business and the EU has already suffered more than the last payment. To me, it's all about business and keeping everything moving and this is not the way.
And from the little I know about GS and some of the others and the deals they were part of with Greece I see no need for the redundancy of saying 'evil banks'.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
That's what I've been arguing from the beginning. Walk away and let them make their own way. But don't forgive their debts and then keep doing the same thing - facilitating their irresponsible behavior - which is what Greece wants the rest of Europe to do and what the rest of Europe, it now seems likely, will do.
Ok, so, we agree, write it off? Loan them new dough at higher rates and shorter terms?
Tilted
..
No, write it off and stop answering the phone.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
By what means is anything going to "grow" in Greece? It's world's largest retirement community....and not much else.
I'm flat broke. Don't have a thin dime in the bank and a limited income that cannot begin to cover my monthly debt obligations.
But if you, Larry, will lend me a million bucks, I'll pay you 20% interest on the loan. I'll at least be able to make payments on the loan out of the money you loaned me....until that runs out anyway.
You will be rich. You will have earned a whopping 20% return on the maybe of 60% of the principle that you get back. Forget about the remaining 40%. And then we can do it again. ;-p
But if you, Larry, will lend me a million bucks, I'll pay you 20% interest on the loan. I'll at least be able to make payments on the loan out of the money you loaned me....until that runs out anyway.
You will be rich. You will have earned a whopping 20% return on the maybe of 60% of the principle that you get back. Forget about the remaining 40%. And then we can do it again. ;-p
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Right. Poor analogy. However, what do you have for assets, business plan, plans for success?
Banks lend to everyone in good times and choke out the poorer performers in bad times to the benefit of the dominant. It's survival of the fattest. And it's understandable but if you got nothing to lose, why should I be surprised if you stab me in my fat, happy throat and just take it? Pigs do well. Hogs should be slaughtered.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Yeah, and we want them to do what? Not be aging?
At core, one of the reasons why the R's and D's have decided it's OK for the US to become Northern Mexico is because we don't have enough young people.
Tilted
..
Well... that worked out well for Greece. But hey, they got to go into the voting booth and feel defiant for a moment - their own best interests be damned. But then their leaders had to deal with reality - with the consequences of their impetuousness - and the reality that they made their economic situation even worse meant that an even worse (for them deal) was agreed to. I have to say I'm a bit surprised that the rest of the EU held as firm as it did, though in continuing to negotiate with the Greeks and provide their banks with assistance in the meantime I'd say the EU caved more than it should have.
Greece still has to get the stuff that was agreed to passed through its parliament. And then the other governments of Europe have to pass the agreement. Who knows, maybe enough Greek people will continue their tantrum and the Hellenic Parliament will balk? Or maybe they better get it now, and realize that all they did last week was cut off their nose to spite their face. If they want help, if they continue to need financial assistance, they don't get to make the rules.
Greece still has to get the stuff that was agreed to passed through its parliament. And then the other governments of Europe have to pass the agreement. Who knows, maybe enough Greek people will continue their tantrum and the Hellenic Parliament will balk? Or maybe they better get it now, and realize that all they did last week was cut off their nose to spite their face. If they want help, if they continue to need financial assistance, they don't get to make the rules.
This_person
Well-Known Member
Why is it every time I read Greece, Goldman Sachs and General Motors come to mind?
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Too Big To Fail's key tenet is, obviously size. In that school of thought, we're all one giant company and Greece, like GM, like any company, is simply a division that can be controlled and told what to do.
It is more efficient, more orderly and controllable.
Call it new world order. Call it conspiracy. Call it what you want but the desire is the same as Rockefeller's or Carnegie's; win it all. A global President. A global bank. A global company for each major area of the economy, all serving at the pleasure of the central authority.
:shrug: