Help me think of a good punishment

[acommondisaster]

I suppose that depends on your definition of success. One of the keys of life, in my view, is figuring out what is important and what is not. Vrai's boy is a perfect example. He has a life we are both absurdly happy about and the only person happier is him, and he absolutely did not go about things as we would have preferred. What he did do, and this was early on, was, have a good sense of who he was as a person, right and wrong, and figured out how to get things to work. What was important and what was bull####. An enormous part of schooling is, for all practical purposes, bull#### unless you're going to specialize in 'it'; English, sciences, math.

Now, I will say this much; his mother stressed out about it every single day and pretty much spent from his 13th birthday to his 16th, maybe 17th, trying to find good reasons to not kill him as an obligation to protect the rest of society. His first venture into the land of the Honor Roll damn near killed her for the shock and sense of relief. He did it, big whoop, moved on, acing the stuff he enjoyed (not much) and getting by in the rest, choosing to go work after school instead of stressing and obsessing over the SAT/ACT, book report, resume building crap 'success path' that we expect of our kids.

So, maybe that is the key, the day to day brawl of trying to convince the kid that what is really never going to be important, like 11th grade English, actually is, thereby giving him the chance to pretend to care while actually figuring out how to work the system?

Success is a mind set. Not a GPA.

I'm not done reading all the responses, but I'm going to respond to this anyway. If the Vraiboi example was the norm for low academic achievers, I'd agree with you. But I hope that you can agree that he is probably more of an exception than the norm. Should honor roll be the goal or the standard by which you measure your kid? (Universal you, not you you) I agree that it should not. Are they turning in homework? Are they reading/doing math, etc at grade level? How are they at home? Do they shirk responsibilities? Do they argue and disrespect their parents? Do they have interests other than the tv and their computer and phone? I think when you can answer those questions to your satisfaction, you might not have honor roll kids, but you'll have kids that arent getting D's.
I kind of liked the idea of showing what it's like to live with D effort things around the house, except that at a certain age, boys dont really care how they smell. I think you have to figure out how you fit into the picture, stop doing their homework for them, and get them to see that they want to get better grades for themselves.

 

[acommondisaster]

Holding my hand worked for me, they both got on my nerves so bad.

I came home with a few one grading period and boy was I punished. No yelling, no screaming just a calm hell. If I picked up the phone it was "Deb let me see what you did in school today"...Head in to watch TV "Deb come here, did you do your book report yet? ...knock on the door, "No, shes getting ready to tell me everything her math teacher talked about today in class"...Going to walk to Highs for a Pepsie "Wait up, Dad will walk with you" "I can go by myself, I always do, I'm old enough." Dad said "Not responsible enough though."

I asked why they were hounding me and the reply was simple. "Well we thought you were responsible enough to know to study, listen in class and know what is expected of you in school and do it. We were wrong, so we will hold your hand and walk you through everyday, like when you were little. When you show us you can handle it yourself, we might let go of your hand again."

I love this.

 

[Dakota]

I'm not done reading all the responses, but I'm going to respond to this anyway. If the Vraiboi example was the norm for low academic achievers, I'd agree with you. But I hope that you can agree that he is probably more of an exception than the norm. Should honor roll be the goal or the standard by which you measure your kid? (Universal you, not you you) I agree that it should not. Are they turning in homework? Are they reading/doing math, etc at grade level? How are they at home? Do they shirk responsibilities? Do they argue and disrespect their parents? Do they have interests other than the tv and their computer and phone? I think when you can answer those questions to your satisfaction, you might not have honor roll kids, but you'll have kids that arent getting D's.
I kind of liked the idea of showing what it's like to live with D effort things around the house, except that at a certain age, boys dont really care how they smell. I think you have to figure out how you fit into the picture, stop doing their homework for them, and get them to see that they want to get better grades for themselves.

I read this thread yesterday, started to type a response and decided I didn't really care enough about sharing my opinion to post.. but I do agree with you. Parent(s) need to take a look at all the factors like reviewing HAC to find out what assignments they are missing or did not do well on. Most often, parent(s) will find they have a kid that is too distracted with video games, computer time, watching TV, hanging out with friends and/or talking on the phone. So those distractions need to be taken away for the moment until the child learns better time management. Part of growing up is learning how to take care of your priorities when needed and making good use of your spare time. I participated in raising my 2 sisters plus I have 2 children of my own. Out of the 4, only 1 had a diagnosed learning disability that made accomplishing good grades a challenge and that was my sister and her diagnoses of having Dyslecia. When the other 3 didn't do well, I knew they were being lazy. My boys hate my restrictions. I never kept them from sports or clubs but I did remove distractions and when they really ticked me off, they got my version of boot camp working around the house.

 

[Larry Gude]

I'm not done reading all the responses, but I'm going to respond to this anyway. If the Vraiboi example was the norm for low academic achievers, I'd agree with you. But I hope that you can agree that he is probably more of an exception than the norm. Should honor roll be the goal or the standard by which you measure your kid? (Universal you, not you you) I agree that it should not. Are they turning in homework? Are they reading/doing math, etc at grade level? How are they at home? Do they shirk responsibilities? Do they argue and disrespect their parents? Do they have interests other than the tv and their computer and phone? I think when you can answer those questions to your satisfaction, you might not have honor roll kids, but you'll have kids that arent getting D's.
I kind of liked the idea of showing what it's like to live with D effort things around the house, except that at a certain age, boys dont really care how they smell. I think you have to figure out how you fit into the picture, stop doing their homework for them, and get them to see that they want to get better grades for themselves.

Better grades for what?

Public schooling is a disaster. It has devolved to the most menial of goals and intentions. We all go to school and then we move on to the real world which has very little to do with our experiences at school. Worse yet, over time, society has come to rely on school more and more and more for things it was never intended to do and, frankly, is the worst place for; values and beliefs.

Every single one of us needs to be seen as and treated as an individual IF the goal is to develop the best person we can be. Our strengths, our weakness's, our interests and so forth. Instead of that, we dump all the kids into a cattle farm and just kinda muddle along in this giant melting pot of goo. We end up with kids who were outstanding students who end up with awful jobs because they were taught to follow the rules, stay in line, do pointless things on time and please the system. We end up with people in positions of great responsibility in 'the system' who have the common sense of a post and the real world experience of a 2 year old but, they know how to work within the system.

We spend FAR more per student on public education than what private schools cost. Everything is about getting kids THROUGH the system. Is there anyone who thinks our public school system, the way we go about it is good?

 

[Misfit]

I appreciate everybody’s input. I read every post and even if I didn’t agree with all of it, it gave me another perspective. Last night was when we decided to have “the talk” and there was a lot of yelling, crying, and a few tantrums then once that was over we called the kids downstairs to speak with them. I agree with what folks are saying about a “D” just being a letter and the insignificance of it all in the big picture but let’s face it, when we’re all grown up and try to get by at our jobs with a poor effort we get fired. It’s the sad reality, if you don’t measure up you’re unemployed. My intent here is to get my kids to understand the importance of education as it relates to employment. I’m not saying that they need to be doctors but they need to graduate H.S. and I’d like them to go to college hoping that they’ll get a decent paying career. I was kind of put on the spot last night because I really hadn’t decided on an appropriate punishment (I know you hippies don’t like that word) that would make them understand that D’s aren’t acceptable but I was still struggling with how do you make teens care? I came up with something in the heat of the conversation that we’re going to try Saturday morning. Each kid is getting on a laptop. First they are finding an entry level unskilled job on somd.com or indeed, something that posts the salary. Then they are looking for an apartment, car, utilities, paying taxes and paying for food etc. Everything will get tallied so they can see what life would be like working an entry level unskilled job and trying to make ends meet. Then they’ll do the same with a skilled job. Hopefully this doesn’t back fire and they want to be hobos but this is what I came up with under duress.

 

[vraiblonde]

But I hope that you can agree that he is probably more of an exception than the norm.

He is. His band of sketchy high school amigos went on a different trajectory and Larry knows that.

Grades in fact count because it says you can put forth effort and learn something. Get your projects done on time. Be where you're supposed to be, when you're supposed to be there, with what you need to have. THAT is what you will use later on in life. That's what I told my son when he was wanking about having to do some report. "Who cares about the Bolivian agriculture?" Me: Nobody, that's why your teacher said you could pick your own subject. She doesn't give a damn about Bolivia, she just wants to know that you can put together a decent report on something.

Doug did well at boot camp because he was used to being screamed at and threatened with bodily harm.

Grades count if they want to go to college.

Knowledge counts when they take that ASVAB.

 

[Larry Gude]

He is. His band of sketchy high school amigos went on a different trajectory and Larry knows that.

Grades in fact count because it says you can put forth effort and learn something. Get your projects done on time. Be where you're supposed to be, when you're supposed to be there, with what you need to have. THAT is what you will use later on in life. That's what I told my son when he was wanking about having to do some report. "Who cares about the Bolivian agriculture?" Me: Nobody, that's why your teacher said you could pick your own subject. She doesn't give a damn about Bolivia, she just wants to know that you can put together a decent report on something.

Doug did well at boot camp because he was used to being screamed at and threatened with bodily harm.

Grades count if they want to go to college.

Knowledge counts when they take that ASVAB.

I asked, specifically, "Why?" in order to get misfits perspective on what her goal was, how she was explaining this to the kid. Was it to get good grades? Was it, as what you did, to teach that you don't have to like it, you just have to do it? Doug's pals are a great example of what I am talking about; twins on two totally different trajectories, having lived in the same home, same rules, same schools. J and R were never going to respond to the same 'inputs' the same way. Never will. Doug understood early on that in order to reduce the amount of spittle flying in his face, and to limit duration of same, he was best served to sand at attention and put on a good show of paying attention. Served him well in the home and the army. K, totally different. Same treatment, same rules and her response? Totally shut down. Spend the entire weekend in her room rather than bend to you.

Kids aren't sheep. They're not cattle. I was stunned when we went to Doug's graduation and he introduced us to that kid who looked like the army poster boy and Doug told us he wasn't graduating because he didn't 'get it'. it was beyond my comprehension that ANY kid could fail at boot because I had assumed that they, of all people, have it figured out how to push everyone through the same mold.

There was not, there is not and never will be a one size fits all way of rearing kids.

 

[MMDad]

how she was explaining this to the kid.

Misfit is a dude.

 

[Larry Gude]

Misfit is a dude.

Huh.

 

[KDENISE977]

Misfit is a dude.

Sorry Missfit

 

[vraiblonde]

There was not, there is not and never will be a one size fits all way of rearing kids.

No, but the kids who have expectations placed on them and firm consequences for failure to comply usually do better than their coddled counterparts.

If you recall, I'm a big fan of the punishment fitting the crime. Bad grades? Why? Is it because you're just stupid? Because you "forget" to bring your books home? Because you don't turn in your projects on time? Once we figure out the why, the solution usually falls into place.

Some kids just aren't mentally capable of doing grade level work alongside their peers, and that's fine - the world needs auto mechanics and trash collectors, too, and there's no shame in that. Not every kid is going to grow up to be a nuclear physicist. But they still need to do their best and put forth the effort.

 

[Misfit]

Misfit is a dude.

Huh.

Sorry Missfit

I'm pretty.

 

[Larry Gude]

No, but the kids who have expectations placed on them and firm consequences for failure to comply usually do better than their coddled counterparts. Usually but not always.

If you recall, I'm a big fan of the punishment fitting the crime. Bad grades? Why? Is it because you're just stupid? Because you "forget" to bring your books home? Because you don't turn in your projects on time? Once we figure out the why, the solution usually falls into place. I always admired that about you.

Some kids just aren't mentally capable of doing grade level work alongside their peers, and that's fine - the world needs auto mechanics and trash collectors, too, and there's no shame in that. Not every kid is going to grow up to be a nuclear physicist. But they still need to do their best and put forth the effort.

Some auto mechanics who could not stand school are smarter and have more common sense than their supervisors who got good grades.

Would you not agree that, currently, we have an enormous glut of kids who followed the rules, got good grades, did extra curriculars, took the SAT's three times and went off to a good school and did well and are stuck in cube farms hating life while other kids decided they were going in the army before senior year, did what they had to do to get the hell away from school and are now the boss trying to deal with the idiots in the cube farm whose degrees aren't worth jack past getting hired?

Again, all I am asking of misfit was what was the goal of the 'punishment'. The reasoning behind it.

 

[Misfit]

all I am asking of misfit was what was the goal of the 'punishment'. The reasoning behind it.

To motivate my teens to get grades >C and the reasoning behind it is that the more they strive to succeed in their job now (school) the greater chance they have of success in their job later.

 

[vraiblonde]

To motivate my teens to get grades >C and the reasoning behind it is that the more they strive to succeed in their job now (school) the greater chance they have of success in their job later.

Be honest: can they do better? There are a number of kids who are never going to be B and A students, no matter how hard they try because their brains are not tuned in to academic work. They may go on to brilliant careers in the Arts or have a specialty interest that will make them a world renowned expert in their field, but they just can't get the hang of English structure or Calculus.

If they can do better, ask them why they aren't doing it. They know the answer and will tell you with the right encouragement. Wait...I mean . Anyway, find out why they aren't pulling the grades they should be, then come back and we'll all brainstorm a solution.

 

[Larry Gude]

To motivate my teens to get grades >C and the reasoning behind it is that the more they strive to succeed in their job now (school) the greater chance they have of success in their job later.

Lot of people have 'success' in jobs they hate and got good grades. It's part of the frustration; "I got good grades and THIS is what it came to?"

As I say, most of the people I consider successful, are absolutely not the 'good grades = success' types. Which, I guess, means you ought to define what 'success' for your kids might look like. What can you see them doing in 10-15 years? What are their natural talents? Vrai's boy was good at three things; comfortable talking with adults, organizing and sorting and resorting his sports card collections and getting his room clean in record time so he could go play. And, fourth, he is both a terrible smart ass and takes as good as he gets with a wonderful sense of humor.

Grades were not part of the program.

 

[vraiblonde]

I'll tell you something Larry and I never did with the kids - never ever ever - and that is ground them from their extracurriculars. We both believed that their various sports, lessons, etc, were just as important to their development as whatever BS the teachers were trying to cram into them. Gimme the phone, gimme the remote, no ma'am you will not be going to that party, but dance was still on. Lacrosse was still on. You were still in the play.

 

[vraiblonde]

Grades were not part of the program.

As I recall, we just wanted him to graduate on schedule. Hellz yeah on the Cs!

 

[HeavyChevy75]

My parent's never punished me for bad grades only because I was dyslexic and they didn't have the money to put me into the special programs. I just did the best I could and figured out coping mechanisms. By the time I got into college I had figured it out and got straight A's through Bachelor's and Master's. Granted I paid for my own college so that was a motivator to.

My stepsister's were brillant but they didn't give a flip about school. Both dropped out and struggle to get jobs.

 

[Larry Gude]

I'll tell you something Larry and I never did with the kids - never ever ever - and that is ground them from their extracurriculars. We both believed that their various sports, lessons, etc, were just as important to their development as whatever BS the teachers were trying to cram into them. Gimme the phone, gimme the remote, no ma'am you will not be going to that party, but dance was still on. Lacrosse was still on. You were still in the play.

Yup. I remember one time thinking not letting Doug go to work was a good punishment for bad grades or whatever the hell, because he liked working so much and then you said words to the effect; "Ok, so, we're sending them to school to learn to get the job done, be responsible and all of that and, at work, he is, and we're gonna punish him by not letting him go do what we want him to be doing?"