Hey, lets hear it for the unions....

[JoeRider]

So this statement is still false?

Anyone who is naive enough to not blame some or most of the problems on the union is an idiot. We have seen first hand the damage unions do to companies. Its OK Obama will bail them out and Michelle will take over and make them turn healthy.

BTW, it is my understanding the the CEO was taking $1 Salary in the earlier years. His salary was part of the agreement to work there. Company seems to be honoring their contracts, the Union is not.

 

[MarieB]

Unfunded pensions - yes, serious problem that the current administration is not addressing. From Article you posted:

Hostess is bankrupt … again - Fortune Management

Trouble with MEPPs is, if some employers go out of business, the remaining companies have to pick up the shortfall in funding benefits. When there are too few employers left standing, the fund is in trouble. According to a March research report by Credit Suisse, MEPPs are now underfunded by $369 billion. A third of the 40 MEPPs to which Hostess contributes are among the most underfunded plans in the country.

Union is behind all these underfunded pensions that we as tax payers will be bailing out. Problem is, we will not be getting pensions, but we will be paying for our neighbors who was over paid because the Union agreements.

I think it's too easy to just blame the union for business financial woes, and especially when all the details are not known

 

[BigBlue]

BTW, it is my understanding the the CEO was taking $1 Salary in the earlier years. His salary was part of the agreement to work there. Company seems to be honoring their contracts, the Union is not.

How is that?If the contract was up and from all the facts it was ,how were they "not honoring "their contract ,there was none.Agree that it seems Union higher ups were not bargining in good faith or in the best interest of it's members but if there is no contract how did they not honor it?

 

[BigBlue]

I think it's too easy to just blame the union for business financial woes, and especially when all the details are not known

Seems like all the other Unions involved were willing to work things out .Companies have options ,closing just seem way to easy.

 

[BigBlue]

Unfunded pensions - yes, serious problem that the current administration is not addressing.



Union is behind all these underfunded pensions that we as tax payers will be bailing out. Problem is, we will not be getting pensions, but we will be paying for our neighbors who was over paid because the Union agreements.

1) I read these forums and see people screaming about big goverment and goverment interference but we want the "current administration " to address it(underfunded pensions) and are mad becuase they haven't?

2) Union,what is union.Unions don't use Collective Bargaining by themselves ,management sits across the table and agrees to these pensions.If both sides negotiate in good faith why is there a problem?

 

[aps45819]

If both sides negotiate in good faith why is there a problem?

If the money doesn't come in the door, how will they pay for the agreed upon terms?

 

[BigBlue]

If the money doesn't come in the door, how will they pay for the agreed upon terms?

I understand but that is what I mean"agreed upon terms"if the Union did what they are suppose to the management needed to do it'as job.Please don't misunderstand me ,the bakers here are idiots but management here seems alittle strange.

 

[JoeRider]

1) I read these forums and see people screaming about big goverment and goverment interference but we want the "current administration " to address it(underfunded pensions) and are mad becuase they haven't?

2) Union,what is union.Unions don't use Collective Bargaining by themselves ,management sits across the table and agrees to these pensions.If both sides negotiate in good faith why is there a problem?

My experience is the union does not bargain in good faith. Why do we cheer when Reagan replaced the air traffic controllers? I agree, the Constitution allows for collective bargain,just like the Constitution allows for Citizen United.

I think my biggest complaint is my buying power is used as a tool for the Union to get what "they" want instead of the interest of the consumer.

 

[Radiant1]

If the money doesn't come in the door, how will they pay for the agreed upon terms?

Then blame health-conscous individuals who stopped buying Twinkies. That's how business goes. :shrug:

It seems to me if they've already filed for bankruptcy, then they shouldn't agree to something they can't produce during the re-negotiation. To do so is... poor managment. Apparently, they had already laid off 10,000 workers since 2004 due to closing 9 bakeries and 340 outlet stores. It wasn't just union pensions they couldn't pay, but also the 700 million dollar loan they received. The union didn't bust this company, the writing was already on the wall.

From what I understand Tasteykake workers are also union. Tasteykake doesn't have this problem AND sells their products for less. Go figure.

 

[Radiant1]

My experience is the union does not bargain in good faith.

Just for clarities sake, what is your experience with unons? Did I miss something you said somewhere?

 

[Radiant1]

I understand but that is what I mean"agreed upon terms"if the Union did what they are suppose to the management needed to do it'as job.Please don't misunderstand me ,the bakers here are idiots but management here seems alittle strange.

I think this is a case of BOTH management AND the union being idiots. And now we all pay a price for it.

I'll miss my Wonder Bread. :

 

[MarieB]

From what I understand Tasteykake workers are also union. Tasteykake doesn't have this problem AND sells their products for less. Go figure.

Tastykakes suffers toothache of unionization, public financing
By: J.P. Freire | 01/06/11 10:08 AM

Philadelphians may lose a sweet economic powerhouse in the Tasty Baking Company if the company is unable to find some sugardaddy to keep it going, which may be thanks to both unionization and government entanglements. According to the Philadelphia Inquirer, the treat manufacturer's decision to move facilities in order to expand operations resulted in biting off more debt than it could chew:

The $100 million debt used to build and move into the new plant, coupled with a failure to gain all expected cost savings from the facility, has put Tasty into a financial squeeze that could force a sale of the firm - identified with Philadelphia like few others - three years from its 100th anniversary.
Tasty said Wednesday that it had skipped a debt payment due Jan. 1 and had until Jan. 14 to work out a deal with its banks, led by Citizens Bank of Pennsylvania, for additional relief. Otherwise, it will be in default.

How did Tasty get such a toothache? A government-subsidized sugar high. Tasty received $31 million in publicly subsidized financing in addition to other credit from Citizens Bank, Bank of America, Sovereign Bank, and M&T Bank, just before the great recession. According to the report, "everything needed to go right for Tastykake to be able to pay it back, given the thin profit from its business. That hasn't happened."
How would a company ever get financing for such a huge risk that would effectively quadruple its debt?





Tastykakes suffers toothache of unionization, public financing | J.P. Freire | Beltway Confidential | San Francisco Examiner

 

[jetmonkey]

Michelle Obama FTW

 

[JoeRider]

Just for clarities sake, what is your experience with unons? Did I miss something you said somewhere?

I grew up in a highly unionized town and through out my career, I have worked with union contractors in delivery and construction projects. I also had to join a union for a brief temp job I had many years ago. Combine by the fact that my father had a union job and many of my relatives have/had union jobs, my experience and impression is very negative.

Many union employees are hard working, but the problem is that instead of the Union addressing the lazy bheads, they allow bad workers to stay on. Combined by the fact that when family members went for help with issues they found a lazy Union rep worried more about lining their pockets than helping they members. I have seen the inefficiency of the Union first hand and how in many cases made simple jobs more complex.

For example, instead of finishing a job that would take 10 more minutes, they stop work at 3 pm, thus causing the job to take another 45 minutes to prep and be completed the next day. Watching the Union up close, I got a chance to see the games they play including thugs and attempted bribes.

I feel the Union stifles the individual for the sake of the collective. Sadly, many talented peoples skills are wasted because of these so called rules. To me that is not the American way and why American has been successful in the past.

The union does not improve the quality of a product and in many cases only increases the cost of the product to me. As a worker paying Union dues, I got zero benefits from the Union. Tell my why I should support the Union?
What value does the Union really provide?

 

[Radiant1]

I grew up in a highly unionized town and through out my career, I have worked with union contractors in delivery and construction projects. I also had to join a union for a brief temp job I had many years ago. Combine by the fact that my father had a union job and many of my relatives have/had union jobs, my experience and impression is very negative.

Many union employees are hard working, but the problem is that instead of the Union addressing the lazy bheads, they allow bad workers to stay on. Combined by the fact that when family members went for help with issues they found a lazy Union rep worried more about lining their pockets than helping they members. I have seen the inefficiency of the Union first hand and how in many cases made simple jobs more complex.

For example, instead of finishing a job that would take 10 more minutes, they stop work at 3 pm, thus causing the job to take another 45 minutes to prep and be completed the next day. Watching the Union up close, I got a chance to see the games they play including thugs and attempted bribes.

I feel the Union stifles the individual for the sake of the collective. Sadly, many talented peoples skills are wasted because of these so called rules. To me that is not the American way and why American has been successful in the past.

The union does not improve the quality of a product and in many cases only increases the cost of the product to me. As a worker paying Union dues, I got zero benefits from the Union. Tell my why I should support the Union?
What value does the Union really provide?

Thank you for the explanation, and I think you're right about a lot of it. Unions aren't as necessary as they used to be, but I'm not to the point quite yet where I would say they are useless. My job is union. I get irked for having to pay high union dues because I think the majority of it goes to pay for that fancy union conference center with swimming pool and tennis court that the bigwigs use, although I can't say I get zero out of it. I am grateful for the union for ensuring safety practices in the work place and negotiating for me a minimal cost of living raise that I otherwise wouldn't receive if it were left up to corporate. Unions don't get voted in by workers for no reason. If corporations took care of their workers like they do their CEOs then there would be no need for them. Corporate greed and union greed, it's all a sick mess.

 

[Larry Gude]

Many union employees are hard working, but the problem is that instead of the Union addressing the lazy bheads, they allow bad workers to stay on. Combined by the fact that when family members went for help with issues they found a lazy Union rep worried more about lining their pockets than helping they members. I have seen the inefficiency of the Union first hand and how in many cases made simple jobs more complex.

For example, instead of finishing a job that would take 10 more minutes, they stop work at 3 pm, thus causing the job to take another 45 minutes to prep and be completed the next day. Watching the Union up close, I got a chance to see the games they play including thugs and attempted bribes.

I feel the Union stifles the individual for the sake of the collective. Sadly, many talented peoples skills are wasted because of these so called rules. To me that is not the American way and why American has been successful in the past.

The union does not improve the quality of a product and in many cases only increases the cost of the product to me. As a worker paying Union dues, I got zero benefits from the Union. Tell my why I should support the Union?
What value does the Union really provide?

Simple, really. Protect workers and provide jobs. Their role, properly understood, has nothing to do with improving products and/or services. That is not their purpose.

Guy I know is union and, in private, he'd agree with everything you just wrote. However, the wages and benefits are very, very good for him and his family and, at the end of the day, his responsibility is to himself and his family.

I understand opposition to unions on the grounds you cite. However, we can't just forget how workers would be treated otherwise. We should no more want a total free market than we should want complete socialization of the economy.

The problem we have is balance.

 

[Gilligan]

However, we can't just forget how workers would be treated otherwise. .

With only 6.9% of all private sector jobs still union...that's some incredible cosmic influence you attribute to their presence.

 

[Larry Gude]

With only 6.9% of all private sector jobs still union...that's some incredible cosmic influence you attribute to their presence.

Hey, I used 'balance' to cover my ass.

There is no doubt or, at least very little, that it's not 1901 any more so, yeah, the harsh reality of labor is LONG gone but, by the same token, there are a lot of jobs that suck and do need some sort of worker protections. We've gotten around dealing with much of it the last 10-15 years because immigrants do many of those jobs.

 

[Radiant1]

With only 6.9% of all private sector jobs still union...that's some incredible cosmic influence you attribute to their presence.

Well, yeah. Thanks to unions in the past, there are now labor laws in place that give unions a little less to fight for regarding safety, work hours, etc. However, with today's prevailing attitude, "Just be thankful you have a job" implies that there possibly could be a return to the "abuse" (I use that term lightly) of workers. I have no doubt whatsoever that corporations would take advantage if they could because that's the nature of business, the bottom line.

Example, I know a woman working for a gov't contractor. She was told she would not get a pay raise in "solidarity with the military", but yet the raises were already worked into the contract which means it's more money for corporate profit instead of her pocket. This is something I view as an abuse of workers, and a union wouldn't allow that to happen to her. But hey, she's just thankful she has a job these days, and that contractor knows it well and is taking advantage of it.

 

[Larry Gude]

Well, yeah. Thanks to unions in the past, there are now labor laws in place that give unions a little less to fight for regarding safety, work hours, etc. However, with today's prevailing attitude, "Just be thankful you have a job" implies that there possibly could be a return to the "abuse" (I use that term lightly) of workers. I have no doubt whatsoever that corporations would take advantage if they could because that's the nature of business, the bottom line.

Example, I know a woman working for a gov't contractor. She was told she would not get a pay raise in "solidarity with the military", but yet the raises were already worked into the contract which means it's more money for corporate profit instead of her pocket. This is something I view as an abuse of workers, and a union wouldn't allow that to happen to her. But hey, she's just thankful she has a job these days, and that contractor knows it well and is taking advantage of it.

Yup.

For anything other than small business, I simply do not understand a mentality that is all pro labor or all pro corporation. At all.