Horse Manure on Trails
- Thread starter CountryLady
- Start date
Respect is easy
Maryland has a "Leave No Trace: policy in effect at all state and local parks. We are all responsible for our trash…bio-degradable or not. I for my Clif Bar wrapper, you for your horse crap, the runner for his/her water bottle, the smoker for his/her cig butt. That’s how simple it is. No need to make it more complicated. Respect the trail and respect those that follow you on the trail.
Maryland has a "Leave No Trace: policy in effect at all state and local parks. We are all responsible for our trash…bio-degradable or not. I for my Clif Bar wrapper, you for your horse crap, the runner for his/her water bottle, the smoker for his/her cig butt. That’s how simple it is. No need to make it more complicated. Respect the trail and respect those that follow you on the trail.
Robin
New Member
Why do you care?
CountryLady
luvmyponies
Leaving No Trace
Below are a few examples of LNT ethics that you can employ while visiting Maryland's public lands.
Younger visitors can check out the Leave No Trace website for kids.
Minimize activity to approximately 12 participants to reduce potential adverse impacts of larger groups. Make sure everyone in your group picks up litter and leaves the area cleaner that you found it.
If possible, select a site for the activity that is under-visited and managed properly. Consult the Department of Natural Resources land manager to avoid sensitive areas or seasons that cannot sustain visitor use.
Travel single file on trails to avoid widening the trail or making new ones. Do not "pioneer" new campsites in areas where use is restricted to designated sites. Concentrating use -- except in very lightly used, pristine areas -- is necessary to minimize vegetation loss and soil compaction and erosion.
Dispose of human waste properly. Use the cathole method. Check with the Department of Natural Resources land manager on available facilities or any restrictions on human waste disposal. Some highly sensitive areas along waterways require that all human waste be packed out. Please be sure you have the equipment and skills necessary to comply with these protections to the environment.
Report trail damage or other environmental impacts that may need corrective management attention to the responsible Department of Natural Resources land manager. Volunteer for trail stewardship management projects. Help keep your natural resources attractive, healthy and available for future use.
LNT includes human waste, not animal
As an avid Scouter very familiar with LNT guidelines (must teach them to scouts), I can tell you the policy includes guidelines for human waste, not animal.
While I don't appreciate animal waste on personal property, sports fields, or the like, on trails is no big deal to me. However, I do respect the fact that others find it distasteful. If I'm with my dog, I will be sure she is off the trail to eliminate as that is something I can control. However, not all horses stop moving to poop and if I'm cantering, I may not even notice unless I have someone behind me that says something. And if someone does let me know, I can promise you I'm not going to canter back, however far, to move poop off to the side. If someone finds it disgusting to step in, why should I have to get it on my boots either? Just because I ride horses, doesn't mean I'm all for poopy boots.
There are things that are part of an outdoor environment that each of us finds distasteful or annoying. The trick is deciding which hill to die for and which to just accept and move on.
I have been blessed to travel to several different countries in the last few years and I can tell you that Americans are the most tightly wound people regarding animals and their waste (well, on alot of issues, but that's for a different forum). Most of western Europe are avid walkers/hikers and I experiences and/or was told of very few "prejudices" against domestic animals whether livestock or household.
[I am NOT saying I'm an authority nor traveled to every village/city in every country. I am just saying the overall impression of the different nations in western Europe.]
There really are more important things to fight for/against in our world than where we should put animal waste in a natural environment.
OK, going to duck for cover since I'm the new girl here.
Dawn
As an avid Scouter very familiar with LNT guidelines (must teach them to scouts), I can tell you the policy includes guidelines for human waste, not animal.
While I don't appreciate animal waste on personal property, sports fields, or the like, on trails is no big deal to me. However, I do respect the fact that others find it distasteful. If I'm with my dog, I will be sure she is off the trail to eliminate as that is something I can control. However, not all horses stop moving to poop and if I'm cantering, I may not even notice unless I have someone behind me that says something. And if someone does let me know, I can promise you I'm not going to canter back, however far, to move poop off to the side. If someone finds it disgusting to step in, why should I have to get it on my boots either? Just because I ride horses, doesn't mean I'm all for poopy boots.
There are things that are part of an outdoor environment that each of us finds distasteful or annoying. The trick is deciding which hill to die for and which to just accept and move on.
I have been blessed to travel to several different countries in the last few years and I can tell you that Americans are the most tightly wound people regarding animals and their waste (well, on alot of issues, but that's for a different forum). Most of western Europe are avid walkers/hikers and I experiences and/or was told of very few "prejudices" against domestic animals whether livestock or household.
[I am NOT saying I'm an authority nor traveled to every village/city in every country. I am just saying the overall impression of the different nations in western Europe.]
There really are more important things to fight for/against in our world than where we should put animal waste in a natural environment.
OK, going to duck for cover since I'm the new girl here.
Dawn
Toxick
Splat
The day after you convince non-smokers that smoking is not as problematic as they perceive.
Which will be two days after hell freezes over.
LNT Guidelines
Yes, LNT guidelines regarding proper disposal of waste specifies human waste, not animal waste. However, the basic premise is to leave no trace. Leaving your animal waste on the trail is by any account, leaving a trace. Be it a dog or a horse.
My expectation is that I will always have to avoid the horse crap on the trails. Do I like it...no. Am I a realist...yes. My hope in responding to this thread was that perhaps those who ride their horses on public trails will at least consider their impact and respect the fact that the other trail users don't like the horse crap and never will. Maybe if you actually took the time to think about your impact, you might be able to come up with some ideas on how to minimize them. Seems reasonable.
Yes, LNT guidelines regarding proper disposal of waste specifies human waste, not animal waste. However, the basic premise is to leave no trace. Leaving your animal waste on the trail is by any account, leaving a trace. Be it a dog or a horse.
My expectation is that I will always have to avoid the horse crap on the trails. Do I like it...no. Am I a realist...yes. My hope in responding to this thread was that perhaps those who ride their horses on public trails will at least consider their impact and respect the fact that the other trail users don't like the horse crap and never will. Maybe if you actually took the time to think about your impact, you might be able to come up with some ideas on how to minimize them. Seems reasonable.
itsbob
I bowl overhand
How can you convince non-horse people that horse manure on public trails is not as problematic as they perceive?
:shrug:
I have to get a laugh from talking to some folks about it, but in the end I get kind of frustrated at the sheer ignorance of some of the responses.
Like this excerpt:
(Talking about requiring horseback riders to pick up their horse poop like dog owners do)
“I get it that the person who is riding the horse would have to get off the horse every couple of minutes to pick up the poop, and a plastic bag wouldn't be sufficient. You would need some sort of large barrel (maybe just a bucket if you were going a short distance).”
Miles of Trials: Horse Poop and Such
GOOD GREIF!
How many people have horses that poop every couple of minutes?
What other things do you hear from NON-HORSE PEOPLE about the negative impact of horses on trails?
How would you feel if i came over to your house and left a steamer on your sidewalk???
CountryLady
luvmyponies
I am not at war with you. I just don't appreciate the negativity you occasionally bring to a thread. Most of the time your comments are fine. But you do have to admit that you occasionally get a little Xfill in the blankX with folks. I am not sure if it is that you have a personal issue with them, but I really don't care about that crap.
ON THE OTHER HAND:
I do care about horses. I do care about most things associated with them, including their peeps. I was just wondering, and you don't have to say. I thought you had like 8-10 horses or something. I was wondering if you weren't riding due to injury to you or horses or was it just a time factor? I personally haven't seen you on a trail ride since last years SMTR twilight ride at double tree farm. I think that was the last time. But that doesn't mean anything. No big deal really. Some times people don't ride cause they don't have any one to ride with. Lots of reasons I guess.
CountryLady
luvmyponies
Here is a good link that is geared toward horse traffic on national trails/parks.
Leave No Trace Horse Use
Specifically about waste:
Dispose of Waste
Pack out all trash and garbage. Do not burn or bury trash.
Kick apart manure piles each day at camp and after any rest breaks on the trail. If you stayed in an established campsite, carry manure away from camp to disperse it.
When breaking camp, check the area for pieces of leather, rope, and other odd bits that may have been dropped.
Traveling with Horses - A Directory of Horse Friendly Facilities, Trail Riding Information and Horse Stories.
Leave No Trace Horse Use
Specifically about waste:
Dispose of Waste
Pack out all trash and garbage. Do not burn or bury trash.
Kick apart manure piles each day at camp and after any rest breaks on the trail. If you stayed in an established campsite, carry manure away from camp to disperse it.
When breaking camp, check the area for pieces of leather, rope, and other odd bits that may have been dropped.
Traveling with Horses - A Directory of Horse Friendly Facilities, Trail Riding Information and Horse Stories.
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CountryLady
luvmyponies
Sonsie
The mighty Al-Sonsie!
Would you really like me to answer that?
What, the sight of his quivering pink buttocks wouldn't do it for you?
CountryLady
luvmyponies
What, the sight of his quivering pink buttocks wouldn't do it for you?
NO visuals ,.......PLEASE! UGH
kom526
They call me ... Sarcasmo
Only if you are a vegetarian...
SadieLady...
Can you really do that? Have your horse poop off the trail? I thought they just dumped as they went along. As a non-horse person, I don’t really know much about it. Okay, I don't know anything about it...I just see the end results!
I imagine it would be difficult for some riders to get on and off their horses unassisted….most of the horses I've seen on the trail are quite large.
When there is an organized group ride with 4 or 5+ horses…..what considerations are given to clearing the trail up after that many horses? That’s a whole lotta poop! Do you or could you designate a rider as the “pooper scooper”?
If you and your posse use a specific public trail often (multiple times a week) could you designate one of those rides as a trail clean up day? Bring a small shovel and chuck the accumulated poop off the trail?
Country Lady....good link. The LNT guidelines are the minimum actions users should take.....dispersing the poop, regardless of when and where the horses drop it, is a good practice that benefits the trail and all the users...including other riders.
Can you really do that? Have your horse poop off the trail? I thought they just dumped as they went along. As a non-horse person, I don’t really know much about it. Okay, I don't know anything about it...I just see the end results!
I imagine it would be difficult for some riders to get on and off their horses unassisted….most of the horses I've seen on the trail are quite large.
When there is an organized group ride with 4 or 5+ horses…..what considerations are given to clearing the trail up after that many horses? That’s a whole lotta poop! Do you or could you designate a rider as the “pooper scooper”?
If you and your posse use a specific public trail often (multiple times a week) could you designate one of those rides as a trail clean up day? Bring a small shovel and chuck the accumulated poop off the trail?
Country Lady....good link. The LNT guidelines are the minimum actions users should take.....dispersing the poop, regardless of when and where the horses drop it, is a good practice that benefits the trail and all the users...including other riders.
Robin
New Member
I am not at war with you. I just don't appreciate the negativity you occasionally bring to a thread. Most of the time your comments are fine. But you do have to admit that you occasionally get a little Xfill in the blankX with folks. I am not sure if it is that you have a personal issue with them, but I really don't care about that crap.
You seem to have it all figured out, go with it. After all you know everything thanks to google. By the way you posted not having a problem about your horse crappin at the parks and no one should have a problem with it to posting a link that states some of the parks rules on horse back riding. Oh by the way I know I am a Snobby Elitist, one of the other smarter forum members said so, after all I was trying to defend her about re cooping money out of pocket to horses she rescued and was reselling. And giving the money back to the one at fault.
interpret what you want not everyone agrees. Just remember some do come on here to seek information. Help, injuries, feeding, training. horse behavior, etc.
You seem to enjoy heated discussions yourself and inject yourself in provoking just as well as any of us. This is what makes interesting reading.ON THE OTHER HAND:
I do care about horses. I do care about most things associated with them, including their peeps. I was just wondering, and you don't have to say. I thought you had like 8-10 horses or something. I was wondering if you weren't riding due to injury to you or horses or was it just a time factor? I personally haven't seen you on a trail ride since last years SMTR twilight ride at double tree farm. I think that was the last time. But that doesn't mean anything. No big deal really. Some times people don't ride cause they don't have any one to ride with. Lots of reasons I guess.
I personally own 3 I do not claim the others on my farm. Belong to the other half.
As far as not riding anymore, How bout a full kick in the face? And pushed about 8-10ft in the air to an asphalt driveway. Equilibrium takes a long time to get back after a concusion. Just sitting on a horse and having movement beneath you can make you nauseaus. still recooping
Its hard to ride when you work 6 days a week away from a farm and have to play catch up the 1 day a week your are off.
Where is the time to ride?
Yes the SMTR ride was going to be my first ride with others. I had a problem, I did not want to be up against a cluster of horses and be next to one that wore a red ribbon on the tail. But the horse was ridden right up in the middle of the bottleneck of other horses waiting to cross the creek. Horses were getting impatient and starting to turn hind ends, So I decided I did not want to have any accidents and decided to dismount and walk back to the trailer and wait for my group to finish their ride. my choice. I don't freqent SMTR that was the first time.
I have positive and negative comments this is a forum and sometimes we will not agree.
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CountryLady
luvmyponies
The whole purpose of this thread was to alleviate the misconceptions.
Misconception #1- horses poop every couple of minutes. NOT (well at least not my horses)
Misconception #2- people have to pick up dog poo, they should also have to pick up horse poo. BIG DIFFERENCE IN POO.
Misconception#3- Only horse cause erosion or compaction of trails
The only other concern I really hear about with horses and trail use is that of erosion. It is a fact that horses with shoes do have a negative effect with regard to erosion on public trails. But so do MOUNTIAN BIKES. It would be just as ridiculous to ask a mountain biker to pick up their bike when they come to moist parts of the trail and carry it across until there is a dry place “with good surface” to place their bike down and start peddling again as it is to always dismount your horse and kick the manure off of the trail.
One of the problems with erosion is made worse due to limited number of parks allowing equestrian use. So the same few parks are always being traveled by numerous equestrian folks. Seems to me it would implore greener practices if more trails were opened to the horse community so that people could ride locally instead of spending exhorbanant amounts of money burning fuels hauling horses to those few parks that allow equestrian use.
IF you don’t like the rules that the national park has posted with their expectations of horses and trail use, tell them not me. Rules are Rules. If you don’t like them, vote to get them changed .
Well, let me attempt to inject a little levity into the situation.
$#!+ happens! While humans are usually toilet trained by the age of 2, and human waste has been known to spread disease if not disposed of properly, it is not appropriate, vegetarian or not, to crap in the woods. But if the urge does come about, people should be educated as to properly take care of it. We are all not scouts. But there is an acceptable practice to dispose of human waste when on the trail. EDUCATION IS THE KEY!
Having said that, not all people that use trails, are horse peeps. While we all have some common understanding about having to use the bathroom, all of a sudden, with no facilities in sight (or on site) Common knowledge tells common folks that it is unacceptable to leave feces on the trail. Right? um…. Maybe. For the common folk, non- horse peep type, that seems like good logic. After all we see signs posted everywhere at public parks and trails etc… requiring dog feces to be picked up. It just makes sense. But dog poop also carries disease/parasites that can be spread to people and other animals. Horses are an end host and the manure doesn’t pose a threat as does human or dog waste. The manure biodegrades very quickly, and while horses diets are made up of mostly plant life, the manure turns to soil very quickly as a result. I have mixed feelings about kicking off the manure while on the trail. While I often have my son dismount and kick the manure off the trail, on certain trails, when we happen to notice the occurrence. It does pose difficulty to always dismount a very large horse to do this without an acceptable mounting block close by. My young son is much more agile and can mount the largest horse we have even when riding bareback. So for him, it is not much of a problem. But others here have posted that it would be very difficult for them, and I expect that may be the case for a lot of folks. Also as a bicyclist, I personally would rather see the pile ahead, so that I may avoid it rather than have it haphazardly scattered with NO possibility of avoidance. JMO! That is one of the problems with dog feces, it is difficult to see, but Darn it if you step in it you smell it immediately. EWEe
Oh, that brings me to: Misconception #4- Horse manure stinks. Not really.
As far as me being provoking, I don’t think so.
i.e.
Pro-supporting argument, an argument in favor of a proposal or position
con-reason not to do something- an argument against doing something, or evidence supporting the view that something should not be done
negative - bad– unhappy discouraging, angry, or otherwise detracting from a happy situation.
positive- optimistic- confident, optimistic, and focusing on good things rather than bad
Misconception #1- horses poop every couple of minutes. NOT (well at least not my horses)
Misconception #2- people have to pick up dog poo, they should also have to pick up horse poo. BIG DIFFERENCE IN POO.
Misconception#3- Only horse cause erosion or compaction of trails
The only other concern I really hear about with horses and trail use is that of erosion. It is a fact that horses with shoes do have a negative effect with regard to erosion on public trails. But so do MOUNTIAN BIKES. It would be just as ridiculous to ask a mountain biker to pick up their bike when they come to moist parts of the trail and carry it across until there is a dry place “with good surface” to place their bike down and start peddling again as it is to always dismount your horse and kick the manure off of the trail.
One of the problems with erosion is made worse due to limited number of parks allowing equestrian use. So the same few parks are always being traveled by numerous equestrian folks. Seems to me it would implore greener practices if more trails were opened to the horse community so that people could ride locally instead of spending exhorbanant amounts of money burning fuels hauling horses to those few parks that allow equestrian use.
Another snide remark about google’ing. What it sounds like you are REALLY saying is “Those of you that think you know it all, REALLY ANNOY THOSE OF US THAT DO” Maybe the REALITY is more like this. Some of the people on this forum know how to read, and rather than any of them accepting any information on this forum that is posted by me, I try to give you an unbiased authority with which to reference. If you are having trouble with that,….. my apologies. I was not trying to insult your intelligence nor was I trying to overwhelm you with knowledge. However, I am beginning to see that referencing other articles really complicates the situation for some folks here. NOT SURE WHY, but it is apparent that it does.
IF you don’t like the rules that the national park has posted with their expectations of horses and trail use, tell them not me. Rules are Rules. If you don’t like them, vote to get them changed .
Some do.
Do I enjoy heated discussions? Not really. Intelligent, interesting discussions? yes.
Well, let me attempt to inject a little levity into the situation.
$#!+ happens! While humans are usually toilet trained by the age of 2, and human waste has been known to spread disease if not disposed of properly, it is not appropriate, vegetarian or not, to crap in the woods. But if the urge does come about, people should be educated as to properly take care of it. We are all not scouts. But there is an acceptable practice to dispose of human waste when on the trail. EDUCATION IS THE KEY!
Having said that, not all people that use trails, are horse peeps. While we all have some common understanding about having to use the bathroom, all of a sudden, with no facilities in sight (or on site) Common knowledge tells common folks that it is unacceptable to leave feces on the trail. Right? um…. Maybe. For the common folk, non- horse peep type, that seems like good logic. After all we see signs posted everywhere at public parks and trails etc… requiring dog feces to be picked up. It just makes sense. But dog poop also carries disease/parasites that can be spread to people and other animals. Horses are an end host and the manure doesn’t pose a threat as does human or dog waste. The manure biodegrades very quickly, and while horses diets are made up of mostly plant life, the manure turns to soil very quickly as a result. I have mixed feelings about kicking off the manure while on the trail. While I often have my son dismount and kick the manure off the trail, on certain trails, when we happen to notice the occurrence. It does pose difficulty to always dismount a very large horse to do this without an acceptable mounting block close by. My young son is much more agile and can mount the largest horse we have even when riding bareback. So for him, it is not much of a problem. But others here have posted that it would be very difficult for them, and I expect that may be the case for a lot of folks. Also as a bicyclist, I personally would rather see the pile ahead, so that I may avoid it rather than have it haphazardly scattered with NO possibility of avoidance. JMO! That is one of the problems with dog feces, it is difficult to see, but Darn it if you step in it you smell it immediately. EWEe
Oh, that brings me to: Misconception #4- Horse manure stinks. Not really.
As far as me being provoking, I don’t think so.
Hmmm…. thought it was 8. Other half, ….same house hold support these animals?
Wow, that’s scarey, hope you recover soon. I am sure your ponies miss your quality time riding together.
At some point you have to decide, “Am I working to live or living to work.”
Well hope to see you out there soon. I don’t particularly like the bottle neck part of some group rides either. Most folks that like to ride at a faster clip usually head out first. Sometimes Lagging back with a few friends to enjoy a leisurely ride is more suitable, especially if you are having confidence issues with a particular mount or maybe you might be training a horse that has never been exposed to obstacles that are on a particular trail.
I think you are getting positive and negative mixed up with pros and cons for the reason of discussion.
i.e.
Pro-supporting argument, an argument in favor of a proposal or position
con-reason not to do something- an argument against doing something, or evidence supporting the view that something should not be done
negative - bad– unhappy discouraging, angry, or otherwise detracting from a happy situation.
positive- optimistic- confident, optimistic, and focusing on good things rather than bad
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CountryLady
luvmyponies
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Robin
New Member
The whole purpose of this thread was to alleviate the misconceptions.
Misconception #1- horses poop every couple of minutes. NOT (well at least not my horses)
Misconception #2- people have to pick up dog poo, they should also have to pick up horse poo. BIG DIFFERENCE IN POO.
Misconception#3- Only horse cause erosion or compaction of trails
The only other concern I really hear about with horses and trail use is that of erosion. It is a fact that horses with shoes do have a negative effect with regard to erosion on public trails. But so do MOUNTIAN BIKES. It would be just as ridiculous to ask a mountain biker to pick up their bike when they come to moist parts of the trail and carry it across until there is a dry place “with good surface” to place their bike down and start peddling again as it is to always dismount your horse and kick the manure off of the trail.
Another snide remark about google’ing. What it sounds like you are REALLY saying is “Those of you that think you know it all, REALLY ANNOY THOSE OF US THAT DO” Maybe the REALITY is more like this. Some of the people on this forum know how to read, and rather than any of them accepting any information on this forum that is posted by me, I try to give you an unbiased authority with which to reference. If you are having trouble with that,….. my apologies. I was not trying to insult your intelligence nor was I trying to overwhelm you with knowledge. However, I am beginning to see that referencing other articles really complicates the situation for some folks here. NOT SURE WHY, but it is apparent that it does.
IF you don’t like the rules that the national park has posted with their expectations of horses and trail use, tell them not me. Rules are Rules. If you don’t like them, vote to get them changed .
I have no problem with the park rules. I do not claim to know it all. Where do you get this from anything I have posted. The google thing does bother me. But its something you like to do. so keep doing it
Some do.
Do I enjoy heated discussions? Not really. Intelligent, interesting discussions? yes.
Well, let me attempt to inject a little levity into the situation.
$#!+ happens! While humans are usually toilet trained by the age of 2, and human waste has been known to spread disease if not disposed of properly, it is not appropriate, vegetarian or not, to crap in the woods. But if the urge does come about, people should be educated as to properly take care of it. We are all not scouts. But there is an acceptable practice to dispose of human waste when on the trail. EDUCATION IS THE KEY!
Having said that, not all people that use trails, are horse peeps. While we all have some common understanding about having to use the bathroom, all of a sudden, with no facilities in sight (or on site) Common knowledge tells common folks that it is unacceptable to leave feces on the trail. Right? um…. Maybe. For the common folk, non- horse peep type, that seems like good logic. After all we see signs posted everywhere at public parks and trails etc… requiring dog feces to be picked up. It just makes sense. But dog poop also carries disease/parasites that can be spread to people and other animals. Horses are an end host and the manure doesn’t pose a threat as does human or dog waste. The manure biodegrades very quickly, and while horses diets are made up of mostly plant life, the manure turns to soil very quickly as a result. I have mixed feelings about kicking off the manure while on the trail. While I often have my son dismount and kick the manure off the trail, on certain trails, when we happen to notice the occurrence. It does pose difficulty to always dismount a very large horse to do this without an acceptable mounting block close by. My young son is much more agile and can mount the largest horse we have even when riding bareback. So for him, it is not much of a problem. But others here have posted that it would be very difficult for them, and I expect that may be the case for a lot of folks. Also as a bicyclist, I personally would rather see the pile ahead, so that I may avoid it rather than have it haphazardly scattered with NO possibility of avoidance. JMO! That is one of the problems with dog feces, it is difficult to see, but Darn it if you step in it you smell it immediately. EWEe
Oh, that brings me to: Misconception #4- Horse manure stinks. Not really.
As far as me being provoking, I don’t think so.
Hmmm…. thought it was 8. Other half, ….same house hold support these animals? I own 2 animals
Wow, that’s scarey, hope you recover soon. I am sure your ponies miss your quality time riding together.
At some point you have to decide, “Am I working to live or living to work.”
right you gonna pay my bills?
Well hope to see you out there soon. I don’t particularly like the bottle neck part of some group rides either. Most folks that like to ride at a faster clip usually head out first. Sometimes Lagging back with a few friends to enjoy a leisurely ride is more suitable, especially if you are having confidence issues with a particular mount or maybe you might be training a horse that has never been exposed to obstacles that are on a particular trail.
Waited for all the riders to leave the trailers before we started out but seems we missed a few and they caught up
I think you are getting positive and negative mixed up with pros and cons for the reason of discussion.
i.e.
Pro-supporting argument, an argument in favor of a proposal or position
con-reason not to do something- an argument against doing something, or evidence supporting the view that something should not be done
negative - bad– unhappy discouraging, angry, or otherwise detracting from a happy situation.
positive- optimistic- confident, optimistic, and focusing on good things rather than bad
Think what you want Have a nice day