how long until the catholic religion dies?

[JPC sr]

Batman

The Rhiems-Douray Bible translation is the only valid one. Your proplem is you are using false translations.
The Bread and Wine consecrated by Jesus at the Last Supper was indeed His Body and Blood.

It does not make any difference if one believes that or the opposite when one treats other people with contempt, Link.

This discussion is hopeless with you people who persist in your unbelief.
May God have mercy on you!

I say it is not their "unbelief" but rather it is their religious intolerance and religious bigotry.

 

[libby]

First off, we do NOT agree that Communion is done in remembrance. Secondly, "Dishonor" is not the word used in Scripture. Rather, 1 Cor tells us that if anyone eats or drinks unworthily "will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord." That's a heck of a lot stronger than what you are suggesting. Remember also, that the Lord compared this bread to the OT manna, He said, "Your fathers did eat manna and died, ...but he that eats this bread shall live forever." The manna in the desert was miraculous, and what is clear here is that Jesus is telling us that the bread that He will give is superior to that manna. If the manna is miraculous, supernatural, heavenly, etc. then the bread and wine cannot be mere natural elements of the earth, for then they would be inferior to the manna.
Now, perhaps you are like those in Jn 6 vs. 52 who ask, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" or those in vs.60 "This saying is hard, who can accept it?" But, for me, I hope to be counted among those who respond as Simon Peter did in vs. 68, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."
This miraculous Presence of Our Lord is above our comprehension. Just as the Trinity, just as the creation of the world out of nothing, just as feeding over 5000 with five loaves and two fish. I will not reduce His generosity, His Most Precious Body and Blood, and His constant giving of a most incomprehensible gift, down to a symbol which bears no more significance than any other Christian symbol.

 

[Bavarian]

First off, we do NOT agree that Communion is done in remembrance. Secondly, "Dishonor" is not the word used in Scripture. Rather, 1 Cor tells us that if anyone eats or drinks unworthily "will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord." That's a heck of a lot stronger than what you are suggesting. Remember also, that the Lord compared this bread to the OT manna, He said, "Your fathers did eat manna and died, ...but he that eats this bread shall live forever." The manna in the desert was miraculous, and what is clear here is that Jesus is telling us that the bread that He will give is superior to that manna. If the manna is miraculous, supernatural, heavenly, etc. then the bread and wine cannot be mere natural elements of the earth, for then they would be inferior to the manna.
Now, perhaps you are like those in Jn 6 vs. 52 who ask, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" or those in vs.60 "This saying is hard, who can accept it?" But, for me, I hope to be counted among those who respond as Simon Peter did in vs. 68, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."
This miraculous Presence of Our Lord is above our comprehension. Just as the Trinity, just as the creation of the world out of nothing, just as feeding over 5000 with five loaves and two fish. I will not reduce His generosity, His Most Precious Body and Blood, and His constant giving of a most incomprehensible gift, down to a symbol which bears no more significance than any other Christian symbol.

Excellently put. My thoughts exactly.

 

[Starman3000m]

First off, we do NOT agree that Communion is done in remembrance. Secondly, "Dishonor" is not the word used in Scripture. Rather, 1 Cor tells us that if anyone eats or drinks unworthily "will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord." That's a heck of a lot stronger than what you are suggesting. Remember also, that the Lord compared this bread to the OT manna, He said, "Your fathers did eat manna and died, ...but he that eats this bread shall live forever." The manna in the desert was miraculous, and what is clear here is that Jesus is telling us that the bread that He will give is superior to that manna. If the manna is miraculous, supernatural, heavenly, etc. then the bread and wine cannot be mere natural elements of the earth, for then they would be inferior to the manna.
Now, perhaps you are like those in Jn 6 vs. 52 who ask, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" or those in vs.60 "This saying is hard, who can accept it?" But, for me, I hope to be counted among those who respond as Simon Peter did in vs. 68, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."
This miraculous Presence of Our Lord is above our comprehension. Just as the Trinity, just as the creation of the world out of nothing, just as feeding over 5000 with five loaves and two fish. I will not reduce His generosity, His Most Precious Body and Blood, and His constant giving of a most incomprehensible gift, down to a symbol which bears no more significance than any other Christian symbol.

Hi libby,

I am glad that you comprehend how one should come before the Lord and be prayerfully prepared prior to partaking of Communion, as it states in the noted scripture: 1 Corinthians 11:27-29

On this we agree.

 

[GusChiggins]

jeez what happened to my thread.

honestly no one else has ANY issues with the Catholic Church? Does the Pope post here? because this would make the first ever gathering of catholics that i have ever met that have no issues with the Church.

 

[libby]

jeez what happened to my thread.

honestly no one else has ANY issues with the Catholic Church? Does the Pope post here? because this would make the first ever gathering of catholics that i have ever met that have no issues with the Church.

Apparently, there are more here who appreciate the Church.
You may get plenty of bashing from non-Catholics, but if you're looking for fellow so-called Catholics to commiserate with you, maybe you are in the wrong place! (although I do believe there are some here somewhere!)

 

[itsbob]

The Catholic Church is the only Church that has the four marks of the True Church: One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. Therefore, as Dominus Jesu stated, other faith communities are defective. The Protestant faith communities are many, they are not one. They are not Apostolic since they rejected Apostolic Succession. The Schizmatic Churches of the Eastern Rite still have the Truth also.
Jesus made St. Peter the first Pope. One has to submit to the Pope to gain salvation. It has been argued whether anyone can gain Heaven now that the Holy Roman Empire is no more and people are under secular regimes.
It is necessary to establish the Social Kingship of Christ on Earth with His Mother as Queen.

Jesus Christ..


Your church is no better nor more right than anyone elses..

Get off your high altar..

I've been to a Catholic church, that #### right there is funny..

Stand up, sit down.. stand up.. sit down.. kneel.. stand up.. sit down..

Simon says "Do this with your hands and arms..".. Simon says "Sit down"...

It was like I landed on a deserted island and the natives were getting ready to cook me for dinner.

 

[libby]

Jesus Christ..


Your church is no better nor more right than anyone elses..

Get off your high altar..

I've been to a Catholic church, that #### right there is funny..

Stand up, sit down.. stand up.. sit down.. kneel.. stand up.. sit down..

Simon says "Do this with your hands and arms..".. Simon says "Sit down"...

It was like I landed on a deserted island and the natives were getting ready to cook me for dinner.

There ya' go, Gus! You got your wish!

 

[Radiant1]

The word pope NEVER appears in the Bible.

Neither does the word TRINITY, but Christians the world over believe it.

As for interpetations of Matthew 16 I think Libby answered that already, so I'll save the bandwidth.

 

[Radiant1]

However, once any denomination coerces people into believing theirs is the exclusive church membership that "guarantees" Salvation is where the division begins.

Unfortunately, today's organized religions and assorted denominations place "conditions" on Salvation apart from genuine repentance and personal Faith in Christ.

The Catholic Church doesn't guarantee salvation. Such a thing seems to be reserved for Sola Scriptura Protestants. The Catholic Church guarantees that you have the tools for redemption if you but want it, any one persons salvation remains to be seen.

I discern a difference between "believe in" and "faith in" and the difference is profound.

Uh yeah, and you previously discerned that I was Lucifer.

Compliments of Dictionary.com:

Faith-noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

Belief-noun

1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

Uh hmmmm.

 

[Starman3000m]

The Catholic Church doesn't guarantee salvation. Such a thing seems to be reserved for Sola Scriptura Protestants. The Catholic Church guarantees that you have the tools for redemption if you but want it, any one persons salvation remains to be seen.

Hmmm...didn't Pope John Paul II specifically believe that the Roman Catholic Church was the "True" Church and that all other "Christian/Protestant" denominations were deficient in the faith? And, didn't Pope Benedcit XVI recently agree much to the same?

You are exactly right, however, being a member of Catholic Church (or any Church) DOES NOT Guarantee Salvation at all.

As far as the "tools" for Redemption, they are provided through personal repentance and acceptance of the Atoning Blood of Christ, and empowerment of God's Holy Spirit in the life of the Believer.

As Jesus stated in John, Chapter 3:

3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Are you born-again?

 

[Radiant1]

Jesus Christ..


Your church is no better nor more right than anyone elses..

Get off your high altar..

I've been to a Catholic church, that #### right there is funny..

Stand up, sit down.. stand up.. sit down.. kneel.. stand up.. sit down..

Simon says "Do this with your hands and arms..".. Simon says "Sit down"...

It was like I landed on a deserted island and the natives were getting ready to cook me for dinner.

It's just too much to ask for us to get on our knees in thanks for Christ's sacrifice! The liturgy MUST be changed to be more entertaining! No steadfast serious worship of God, holding hands and singing Kumbaya will do just fine!

 

[Radiant1]

Hmmm...didn't Pope John Paul II specifically believe that the Roman Catholic Church was the "True" Church and that all other "Christian/Protestant" denominations were deficient in the faith? And, didn't Pope Benedcit XVI recently agree much to the same?

You are exactly right, however, being a member of Catholic Church (or any Church) DOES NOT Guarantee Salvation at all.

As far as the "tools" for Redemption, they are provided through personal repentance and acceptance of the Atoning Blood of Christ, and empowerment of God's Holy Spirit in the life of the Believer.

As Jesus stated in John, Chapter 3:

3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Are you born-again?

Yes, the fullness of Christ's truth is found in the teachings of the Apostolic church. Those who are outside it do not have the full truth but only a part of it, whether they be Prostestants, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc.

I was born again when I was baptized, a sacrament I would never have received had it not been for the Church. I am also born again each time I confess my sins and receive Christ in Eucharist.

 

[libby]

Hmmm...didn't Pope John Paul II specifically believe that the Roman Catholic Church was the "True" Church and that all other "Christian/Protestant" denominations were deficient in the faith? And, didn't Pope Benedcit XVI recently agree much to the same?

You are exactly right, however, being a member of Catholic Church (or any Church) DOES NOT Guarantee Salvation at all.

As far as the "tools" for Redemption, they are provided through personal repentance and acceptance of the Atoning Blood of Christ, and empowerment of God's Holy Spirit in the life of the Believer.

As Jesus stated in John, Chapter 3:

3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Are you born-again?

I'm interested in the bold, red lettering used. Is a man who is "born again" guaranteed salvation, or can he still lose his salvation?

The Catholic Church is the one, true Church established by Jesus Christ. However, being baptized or confirmed into it does not guarantee salvation any more than having stood face to face with the Messiah and heard His call is a guarantee. Remember the rich, young man, remember the 2nd thief, remember Judas, remember the disciples in Jn 6? All had the free will to follow Him, or reject that Truth which is Him Alone.
You and I have that same choice, every day. We may follow Him for awhile and be in His Grace, but then the teaching becomes too hard and we walk away.

 

[Starman3000m]

Hi libby,

Thank you for your excellent questions and, yes, there are answers.

I'm interested in the bold, red lettering used. Is a man who is "born again" guaranteed salvation, or can he still lose his salvation?

According to the Holy Bible: Jesus said this of those who are Born-Again:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:28-29)

And when a person is truly Born-Again, he/she is sealed by The Holy Spirit that comes to indwell the life of the believer and gives a renewed life in Christ. Changes happen in the person's life and if they have truly been sealed by the Promise of The Holy Spirit they do not lose their salvation.

Ephesians, Chapter 1:

12: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,14: Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15: Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16: Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17: That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

2 Corinthians, Chapter 1:
21: Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22: Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

While a true Born-Again Believer who has been sealed by the Holy Spirit will not lose Salvation, he/she still retains free will that determines how near or far one is from seeking and being obedient to God on a daily basis:

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Ephesian 4:30)

The Catholic Church is the one, true Church established by Jesus Christ.

When Jesus spoke of His Church, He signified the Spiritual Church i.e. Spiritual Body of Believers comprised by any and all who admit that they are sinful, repent and accept by faith God's Promise of Salvation through the Atoning Blood of Jesus Christ. Born-Again is receiving the Spiritual Renewing that brings true Peace, Love and Joy in the heart and life of God's Children - even in the midst of adversities:

John 14:
15: If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16: And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17: Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18: I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. (Romans 14:17)

However, being baptized or confirmed into it does not guarantee salvation any more than having stood face to face with the Messiah and heard His call is a guarantee. Remember the rich, young man, remember the 2nd thief, remember Judas, remember the disciples in Jn 6? All had the free will to follow Him, or reject that Truth which is Him Alone.

Exactly Right! That is why there are many people attending church purely on the basis that they sincerely believe they are attending the "True Church" and just by doing so they will be seen in God's Favor. Not so. God deals with the individual's heart and His Spirit discerns who is really sincere in seeking His Guidance and who is just going through the "religious motions". Also, one needs to test the spirit of the Doctrine being taught to see whether it is True to God's Truth or if it is mixed in with religious distortions imposed by church leaders. Remember also how Jesus chastised the religious leaders of His Day because they were leading people away from the simplicity of God's Truth?

Here are just a few examples:

Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts; Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation. (Luke 20:46-47)


Matthew, Chapter 15:
10: And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12: Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13: But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14: Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15: Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16: And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17: Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18: But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19: For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

People who are seeking a close walk with God are warned of the following:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (Colossians 2:8)

You and I have that same choice, every day.
We may follow Him for awhile and be in His Grace, but then the teaching becomes too hard and we walk away.

God's teaching is never too hard, libby, it is Joy, Peace and Comfort to the soul. Yes, in human terms (emotions and reasoning) we could easily find God's teaching hard and many do because they need the spiritual guidance that Jesus spoke about through the Holy Spirit and this when one is truly Born-Again:


But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
(John 14:26)

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say. (Luke 12:11-12)

And the Eternal Promises of God:

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. (Jeremiah 29:13)

Salvation is received By Faith in God's Plan, not man's plan:

John, Chapter 3:
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Comforting Words from The Lord Jesus Christ:
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. (John 14:27)