Hypothetical Gun Control Debate

[sleuth]

I was watching "Jack & Bobby" on the WB last night, and the portion of the show that was dedicated to Bobby's presidency 40 years from now was talking about an "assassination" attempt on Bobby.

The reason I have "assassination" in quotes is an interesting one. Apparently, 40 years into the future, a nonlethal bullet has been designed that, when striking its target, releases an electrical discharge that paralyzes the victim for up to an hour.

It was considered breakthrough, because now, there was no need to kill anyone. Gun control proponents were ecstatic, and gun control opponents were split on the issue of banning all guns that use lethal bullets.

Bobby vetoed the bill, and at a press conference, he was shot with a nonlethal bullet.

I pondered this for awhile last night, and I was trying to decide if the invention of a nonlethal bullet would result in more or less gun crime.

I was also curious as to whether gun control opponents would actually be split on such a veto.

...so... if this hypothetical situation came to fruition, what would your positions be?

 

[Bruzilla]

Interesting situation. First, let's set some parameters: First, there are four major classes of legal gun owners - Collectors (15%), Target Shooters (40%), Hunters (25%), and Self-Defense (20%). There are also the military, security, and law enforcement shooters. Lastly, there are criminals.

For the first groups, Collectors (of which I am one) usually don't shoot their guns, so lethal vs non-lethal is pretty much a non-starter with us. Target Shooters need to punch holes in paper, cans, and knock down steel plates. If you can accomplish these with non-lethal bullets, I'm guessing they wouldn't have much of a problem. But on a practical side, if a bullet can puncture a soda can, I'm sure it would puncture a human, so I would say that the Target Shooters are a big NO vote. Hunters are going to object as they need lethal bullets, however, there is something to be said for shooting a deer with a bullet that paralizes and drops the deer immediately, which avoids you having to track a wounded deer through the woods. As for Self-Defense gun owners, I don't see why they would object to non-lethal ammo - in fact I think that a guaranteed one-shot drop would be pretty attractive.

Moving onto police and the military, I think you're looking at a 50/50 split. The police/security types would be for, the military against.

Then comes your criminal element. When they shoot someone, they usually want to kill them, so I'm sure they would be against non-lethal bullets if they had a vote.

So that would give you Self-Defense shooters and Police, and maybe Collectors, being for the bullets, and Hunters, Target Shooters, the Military, and Criminals being against, so I would say yes, there would be a split as a non-lethal bullet does not meet the needs of the people who actually shoot guns.

By the way, this situation suffers from a very substantial flaw... one that I'm not suprised the producers of the show, who obviously aren't shooters, failed to take into account. That is that a self-contained cartidge (which is what is really being discussed here, not just a bullet) is comprised of a casing, primer, powder charge, and a bullet. It is an extremely simple procedure to remove any bullet from any cartidge, and replace it with any other bullet of the same caliber. Since anyone with a homemade mold, a plumbers torch, and some soft metal can make a bullet, and replace the non-lethal bullet with it, there's no way that you could eliminate lethal ammunition.

 

[Sharon]

an electrical discharge that paralyzes the victim for up to an hour.

Does it work on 800 pound grizzly bears?

 

[vraiblonde]

Since anyone with a homemade mold, a plumbers torch, and some soft metal can make a bullet, and replace the non-lethal bullet with it, there's no way that you could eliminate lethal ammunition.

That's what I find so hysterical about these gun-banning nuts and their non-lethal bullet "solution". So we give the cops, our protectors, non-lethal bullets...but the criminals, our protectors, can still get lethal bullets. DUR!! What kind of sense does that make?

It's like liberals think that criminals will abide by any gun laws they want to hand down. DUR AGAIN!!! If they were going to follow the law, THEY WOULDN'T BE CRIMINALS and we wouldn't have to worry about them in the first place!!!

 

[Bruzilla]

So we give the cops, our protectors, non-lethal bullets...but the criminals, our protectors, can still get lethal bullets. DUR!! What kind of sense does that make?

I think it makes great sense! You can hit a guy with two or three 9MMs, but he's still able to return fire... they don't just fall to the ground like on TV. I would think that the cops would love a bullet that one hit would take the perp down, give them time to walk over and spit on his face, then cuff him and stick him in the Crown Victoria.

And since we're talking about TV fantasy anyway, think about this - The Tim Taylor shooter! "Whoa-ho-ho Al. Sure this non-lethal bullet normally puts out 20,000 volts, but it needs more power! So we've upped it to 200,000 volts!" One shot and the perp turns into one of those cartoon characters that turns to ash and then crumples into a pile of cinders. There's more than one way to modify those bullets!

 

[vraiblonde]

I think it makes great sense! You can hit a guy with two or three 9MMs, but he's still able to return fire... they don't just fall to the ground like on TV. I would think that the cops would love a bullet that one hit would take the perp down, give them time to walk over and take a kill-shot to the head, then bag him and stick him in the crematorium.

Okay - I'll go along with that.

 

[sleuth]

Okay - I'll go along with that.

I did think it was interesting in the show.

The modern-day portion of the show had Bobby going deer-hunting for the first-time (at about 14 years old), with his now-mentor male neighbor. The male neighbor saw hunting for what it was, a chance to build character, to learn about yourself, to enjoy the outdoors, and to get back to man's primitive past of actually having to hunt your food. Bobby's mom saw it as a malicious barbaric activity of simply killing animals for no reason other than sport.

Bobby shot a deer, shattering its shoulder, and it was still alive, but down. Then he walked up on it, found it alive and suffering, and suddenly felt remorse - he couldn't shoot it again for the kill, and his mentor did.

Bobby (remember, age 14 and probably the only thing he had ever killed) cried in his bed that night over what he had done, and that's how the show ended. It didn't really go into whether he cried over killing the deer, or not being able to finish the job.

Flash forward 40 years to President Bobby, and he gets shot with a non-lethal bullet because he was about to veto a ban on lethal ones. It's interesting that despite this boyhood experience, he vetoed the bill anyway. Then he gets shot, and as soon as he's able to speak, he grants the woman clemency on the spot (she had apparently lost her son in a police crossfire a few weeks prior).

I'm really liking this show.

Here's a question though. Do you think the invention of a non-lethal bullet would result in MORE gun crime, or LESS gun crime?

 

[aps45819]

Here's a question though. Do you think the invention of a non-lethal bullet would result in MORE gun crime, or LESS gun crime?

We got a lot of non-lethal weapons already.

Malodorants and irritants are two types of nonlethal weapons designed to temporarily mark, incapacitate, or drive away persons from an area. Environmental assessments have been performed on the malodorants Bathroom Malodor and Who-Me?, and the irritants Oleoresin Capsicum (OC), CS-Mace, and CN-Mace.

A running gear entanglement system (RGES) is proposed to protect Navy ships in port, and other waterside assets such as museums and marinas. The entanglement device will foul the propeller of unauthorized vessels attempting to approach restricted areas.

A pulsed-energy projectile (PEP) is under development that uses a chemical laser technology to produce a large flash, bang, and shock wave to temporarily disorient and incapacitate individuals in a crowd.

Anti-traction material (ATM) is a very slippery, gel-like substance sprayed on ground surfaces to prevent access to areas by people and vehicles.

Nonlethal airburst munitions are 20mm weapons designed to emplace liquids, aerosols, powders and other objects at a precise location in space.

Thermobaric technology is a nonlethal weapon, in development, that causes extended flash, sound, temperature, and pressure conditions to disorient and/or temporarily incapacitate individuals.

 

[Bruzilla]

The male neighbor saw hunting for what it was, a chance to build character, to learn about yourself, to enjoy the outdoors, and to get back to man's primitive past of actually having to hunt your food. Bobby's mom saw it as a malicious barbaric activity of simply killing animals for no reason other than sport.

Most every hunter I know likes to hunt because it's a cheap way to get a lot of good meat. If there was a way to get a nice wild pig, turkey, or deer to drop dead in their back yard, they'd never pick up a gun again.

Flash forward 40 years to President Bobby, and he gets shot with a non-lethal bullet because he was about to veto a ban on lethal ones. It's interesting that despite this boyhood experience, he vetoed the bill anyway. Then he gets shot, and as soon as he's able to speak, he grants the woman clemency on the spot (she had apparently lost her son in a police crossfire a few weeks prior)..

Okay.. this is where I get lost. Why would shooting the President for vetoing a bill to ban lethal bullets, with a non-lethal bullet, because of grief from a son being shot, make any sense? Shooting the President with a lethal bullet to demonstrate why they should be banned makes perfect sense, but what could be gained by using a non-lethal one? We're they pursuing the "if it had been real, you would be dead, so think about that Mister!" angle? Also, I love the "police crossfire" angle... like there were two groups of police shooting at one another with the kid in the middle! Why can't they say criminal crossfire, as they were on the other side?

I'm really disliking this show.

Here's a question though. Do you think the invention of a non-lethal bullet would result in MORE gun crime, or LESS gun crime?

Define gun crime? I think murders would decrease very slightly as people accidentally shot with home defense guns stay alive. Crime-related deaths, the vast majority of murders, would be uneffected. "Shootings" would go wayyy up as robbers would have no reason to not "shoot" the clerk or victim. They could "shoot" them immediately, rob them, and get away without any fear of incarceration or damnation.

And then there's domestic violence. Think of your average couple... we'll call them Trai and Lorry for example. Nice people, but Trai is a total PITA, and one day after a major argument over the long-term sociological impacts of Fox cartoons, Lorry snaps, grabs his trusty Smith & Wesson, and shoots Trai with a non-lethal bullet just to shut her up. Is there a crime there? There's no wounding, no trauma, no lasting damage... no threats, no abuse, no beating... just a .357 Magnum time-out period.

Disclaimer: The writer of this post states that any resemblence between the couple listed above, and any living, dead, or undead, couple currently existing in real space or cyberspace, is purely cooincidental.

 

[sleuth]

Okay.. this is where I get lost. Why would shooting the President for vetoing a bill to ban lethal bullets, with a non-lethal bullet, because of grief from a son being shot, make any sense? Shooting the President with a lethal bullet to demonstrate why they should be banned makes perfect sense, but what could be gained by using a non-lethal one? We're they pursuing the "if it had been real, you would be dead, so think about that Mister!" angle? Also, I love the "police crossfire" angle... like there were two groups of police shooting at one another with the kid in the middle! Why can't they say criminal crossfire, as they were on the other side?

I'm really disliking this show.

I was pondering that as well. And I may have misspoke with the words "police crossfire" - I don't remember the exact words. But you're right... it doesn't quite make logical sense. I suppose it could have been the 'think about that Mister' angle.

No reason to dislike the show over it. I find it to be very thought-provoking. Hence, the reason I even posted this.

And you have to remember, they've made Bobby an independent, i.e. the first independent to ever serve as a US President. They've made Bobby's mother a bleeding heart liberal professor, a weak mother, but with a few redeeming qualities, and they've made this neighbor guy a staunch conservative university president, who despite his obvious intelligence, professionalism, and high expectations for people, and efforts at mentoring Bobby, isn't that good a dad to his own daughter. Jack, Bobby's brother, is torn between being popular and doing the right things, and because of their mom's lack of parenting skills, is often Bobby's father figure.

Most of the characters in this show are very complex. One minute you hate them, the next minute they surprise you by coming thru in the clutch.

Of course, the writers have to keep this show right down the middle in order to gain the widest audience.

And then there's domestic violence. Think of your average couple... we'll call them Trai and Lorry for example. Nice people, but Trai is a total PITA, and one day after a major argument over the long-term sociological impacts of Fox cartoons, Lorry snaps, grabs his trusty Smith & Wesson, and shoots Trai with a non-lethal bullet just to shut her up. Is there a crime there? There's no wounding, no trauma, no lasting damage... no threats, no abuse, no beating... just a .357 Magnum time-out period.

Disclaimer: The writer of this post states that any resemblence between the couple listed above, and any living, dead, or undead, couple currently existing in real space or cyberspace, is purely cooincidental.

 

[Larry Gude]

This is absurd...

...Bobby Kennedy was shot in order to kill him, not knock him out.

Bruz covers most of the bases pretty good and here's a few pennies from me:

I do not want to annoy a criminal who enters my home. I want to defend my family, home and self. Part of the defense equation includes the future. If some animal enters my home with intent to rob and/or more, I do not and should not ever have to worry about him coming back. Or stalking my kids. Or seeking some form of revenge. You cross the Rubicon, no coming back, when you enter someones home with ill intent.

People are so screwed up about fireams, it's just dangerous. The mere idea of a private citizen sitting in church with a concealed pistol sends some through the roof and yet they support policies that barely hold a criminal responsible at all when he actually uses a weapon in a real crime.

Criminals will carry two weapons. Time is their enemy. Instead of walking into the store and demanding hands up, give me the money, get against the wall, they'll just come in blasting with their knockout bullets take the cash and go. The killer gun is for their competitors on the street. They don't want to have to look over their shoulder any more than I do.

Carjacking? POP. Knock you out. Purse snatching? She can't describe you if she was out cold.

Think like a predator when you think about stuff like this.

Non lethal bullets will make crime skyrocket. Nobody gets in trouble now for murder. Who's gonna be worried about real deterrent sentencing when their lawyer is arguing that the victim should be thankful he wasn't hit with the real thing.

Johhny Cochran'll get some thug "Concerned Citizen of the Year" for being so compassionate, being nice while commiting the necessary crimes society has forced him to commit.

 

[sleuth]

...Bobby Kennedy was shot in order to kill him, not knock him out.

The show isn't about Bobby Kennedy...
It's about Bobby McAllister, your US President in 2040.

 

[Bruzilla]

... they've made this neighbor guy a staunch conservative university president, who despite his obvious intelligence, professionalism, and high expectations for people, and efforts at mentoring Bobby, isn't that good a dad to his own daughter.

A staunch conservative university president? I find the non-lethal bullets more of a possibility than that one. And of course, since the guy is a staunch conservative, he can't be a great dad to his kids.

They only made Bobby an Independent President because making him the obvious party, Democrat, would be making the same mistake that the West Wing made. With Democrats out of power, nobody but the yellow dogs will watch a TV show about them.

 

[vraiblonde]

Trai and Lorry

 

[Larry Gude]

My bad...

I was watching "Jack & Bobby"

I assumed it was playing off the other Jack and Bobby.

 

[sleuth]

I assumed it was playing off the other Jack and Bobby.

No problem...

 

[Lenny]

I assumed it was playing off the other Jack and Bobby.

Where's the snivelling fat baby brother named Ted who drinks all the formuila then pukes on the carpet?

 

[Larry Gude]

Great idea!

Where's the snivelling fat baby brother named Ted who drinks all the formuila then pukes on the carpet?

Now, as there is no national media bias, especially in Hollywood, we should be seeing "That's my Kennedy" any time now, right?

"In this weeks episode, Teddy drinks and says some outraged things no one can quite understand..."

 

[2ndAmendment]

Does it work on 800 pound grizzly bears?

1200 pound elk?

 

[2ndAmendment]

I think it makes great sense! You can hit a guy with two or three 9MMs, but he's still able to return fire... they don't just fall to the ground like on TV. I would think that the cops would love a bullet that one hit would take the perp down, give them time to walk over and spit on his face, then cuff him and stick him in the Crown Victoria.

And since we're talking about TV fantasy anyway, think about this - The Tim Taylor shooter! "Whoa-ho-ho Al. Sure this non-lethal bullet normally puts out 20,000 volts, but it needs more power! So we've upped it to 200,000 volts!" One shot and the perp turns into one of those cartoon characters that turns to ash and then crumples into a pile of cinders. There's more than one way to modify those bullets!

Sorry, but the 200,00 volts does not do it. Sharon has one of those and had occation to use it. No effect. Huh? OK. Hit me with it. Uncomfortable? Yeah. Would I cream you if you did it to me? Yep. Only a wimp would go down from one of the 200,000 volt stun guns.