I support this...

[Larry Gude]

Oh excuse the hell out of me.

Larry,

You placed this quote in your post above.


Now a real easy question, what U.S. company is being taken over? I sure as Hell thought this was about the takeover of the Brit P & O company.

We'll take the Ken King head in the ground approach; When we FIRST sell a US company to, say, the Brits, we'll apply some rules. After that, THEY can sell it to who ever the hell they want and we'll just say "hey, we followed the rules the first time. Why should we have to check out the new guys? We trust you! Go ahead!"

I really can't believe you said that.

 

[Larry Gude]

As you have NOT read...

I guess the UAE took the President to heart when days after 9/11/01 he said, "You are either with us or against us".

...it seems, a single post I've written, once again;

How many pairs of boots they got on the ground with us? Name me a UAE government type counterpart to Tony Blair who is standing, very publcily, with us.

Ohhhh! They pushed a button! Froze some assets! "Gave' us some base room!
We're getting that all for free, right? How about a port, Ken? We get to keep, own and operate a port? How about one single thing in their nation? A drug store?

No? Know why, Ken? They have a law that says any foreign business interest must have a 51% UAE interest in order to operate there.

 

[Larry Gude]

Bruz...

Larry, I guess I'm still not seeing the national security threat in this deal. Are any of these ports going to gave a bastion of UAE troops that we would have to fight through if for some reason the port was closed? No. Is there any way that the US couldn't easily seize control of any of these ports of they were closed and posed a national security threat? No. Is there any weapon or alien terrorist that could be shipped over in the future that can't be shipped to the US now? No. I would concede your point if we were closing the ports and having shipments routed through a foreign country where we would have to fight foreign troops on their territory to reopen the ports, but that's obviously not the case here.

Bruz, you don't see it and you're not gonna see it because, to you, an economic disruption of however much time it would take us to take over control were they to mess things up, is no big deal.

You, of all people, I thought would get the small business angle. We live in a global economy where I get plant sleeves from China, robot parts from Holland and servo controls from Germany. I get cuttings, small live plants, from Guatemala, China, Europe.

I can sit here all day and give you real stories that have happened with NO deliberate interference from anyone. A week can cost me a whole season if I miss a plant date. A month might put me out of business.

Just imagine if you had an interest in creating a ripple in the US economy. Mis-label containers. Re-route things. Lose manifests. You guys seem to have ZERO imagination and zero concern for what this could do to smaller companies and, hence, the economy as a whole.

It ain't gonna knock out Exxon or Microsoft or the US Army. Inconvenience, perhaps.

Perhaps having one shipment of components for the Army delayed for a few days or weeks achieves some obscure objective of the UAE? The army rolls on but what about the backbone of our economy? Small business?

I mean, you guys have your noses stuck in spy novels. The business of economics through the free flow of goods is dull and boring and..critical.

But, yet again, you all want to argue the obvious;

"Well, Larry, you see, they could still get weapons or a bomb or whatever through because these guys aren't responsible for inspection and interdiction and blah, blah..."

No kidding? You mean people who killed 3,000 with a handful of boxcutters could still get by us!? Perish the thought!

Maybe I'll bring that up one day. But I have not so far. You guys are zero'd in on an issue I have not raised or contested, not once.

In the mean time, I keep saying the same things;

US sovereignty and vital US national interest.

I've even clarified that I was talking about economics and you guys come right back about the inspections and physical security and Ken says a business is the same as a government, no biggee there.

Oh well. Looks like you're gonna get your way anyway.

 

[Larry Gude]

PS...I couldn't type...

...any faster. We were in B'more all weekend. #2 made state chorus. Put on a wonderful show.

We walked around the inner harbor for awhile and watched a bunch of Bush admin guys putting FOR SALE (only to foreign governments) signs all over everything...

 

[aps45819]

You, of all people, I thought would get the small business angle. We live in a global economy where I get plant sleeves from China, robot parts from Holland and servo controls from Germany. I get cuttings, small live plants, from Guatemala, China, Europe.

I can sit here all day and give you real stories that have happened with NO deliberate interference from anyone. A week can cost me a whole season if I miss a plant date. A month might put me out of business.

The UAE government and ours are entirely different entities. Theirs is a council of Emirs that banded together for common defensr and economic growth. The have seem to have their Shyt together as far as economic matters go. They're like the board of directors for a corporation, a corporation that likes to make a profit. You can't make a profit if you screw your customers.
The alternative to the DPW (and other forien companies) managing port services would be the creation of a new federal agency. Of course this one would be staffed by civil servents, there would be no reason for them to be efficient or reduce operating costs. They could get the guys that took over gas distribution in the 70's to run it.
Do you have any alternative to a forien owned company operating the ports if no American company wants to do it?

 

[Larry Gude]

Oh...

The UAE government and ours are entirely different entities. Theirs is a council of Emirs that banded together for common defensr and economic growth. The have seem to have their Shyt together as far as economic matters go. They're like the board of directors for a corporation, a corporation that likes to make a profit. You can't make a profit if you screw your customers. The alternative to the DPW (and other forien companies) managing port services would be the creation of a new federal agency. Of course this one would be staffed by civil servents, there would be no reason for them to be efficient or reduce operating costs. They could get the guys that took over gas distribution in the 70's to run it.
Do you have any alternative to a forien owned company operating the ports if no American company wants to do it?

...why didn't every one say? I'd thought they were a foreign nation with their own national interests! They're different than us but operate in a fashion, customer driven, like Walmart, that would obviously over ride any concerns of a conflict of national interests.

We, because you say the only alternative is a government, our government, run operation, why there y'ah go! I mean, hell, who wouldn't want a foreign government to run things if OUR government is the ONLY option? I feel all better now!

I just can't wait until your job or company has to compete with a NATION that has so much cash they build, BUILD islands for entertainment. Why, then, of course, the ONLY choice will be our lowly government taking over and being your boss or...maybe we can get some other nation to do it?

Yeah!

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of (insert nation here) and to the (insert form of government here) for which it stands, one nation (whomever has the cash at the time) under (insert deity) indivisible, with what passes for liberty and whatever they call justice for, I suppose, whomever they tell us it's for."

Why don't y'all quit trying to get me to see things your way and just prepare for the celebration? It looks like me and my paranoia and clueless world view of what is and isn't a national interest is going to be snowballed under by the almighty dollar. Is that the currency they trade in?

Don't worry! Be happy! It'll be a done deal in 45 days! Go buy stock in the next thing you think we're gonna sell to a foreign government. After all, why shouldn't you profit in such a great idea as well?

 

[FromTexas]

I am the Lorax, I speak for the trees.

 

[Ken King]

Larry,

The major fear most people have about this deal is that they feel it will enable terrorists to bring in a major destructive device, dirty bomb, bio/chem weapon that could do significant damage to us. I can respect that and understand it, BUT.

What I am seeing is what I would have expected to have seen back in the 40s. It is strikingly similar to how many people looked at Orientals back then. For many they were all sneaky Jap bastards, even the Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos and other Pacific islanders. Are all Arabs today’s sneaky bastards?

I don’t think that this is the case, just like back then. I’ve spent time over there in several of the Arab countries and know the differences between various groups of Arabs. These south desert nomads, sitting on their major oil dollars, are nothing like the northern Arabs. These guys survived on sand when that is all they had and they know on which side of the bread the butter goes on. They are survivors and smart. They chose to align with us. That in it self should tell you something.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this and trust me I do understand what you’ve been saying and agree with some of your disdain for the attitude towards our security on this matter but it seems to have been decided already. Our government made that determination and set up the rules as to who can or cannot own these operations.

I just think that this change in ownership will not make us any more vulnerable, given our existing vulnerabilities. In other words, we have bigger worries.

 

[Bruzilla]

Okay... I was watching Brit Hume, and bless his heart he's one of the few media types who actually tells the whole story. Someone else might have mentioned this, but Hume offered a lot of detail on this deal that I did not know about. The big point is that I thought the UAE would own the ports, but that is not the case. The only thing this deal involves is the operation and maintenance of the loading and unloading equipment at the ports. The contract holder has nothing to do with port security (which I already knew), nothing to do with scheduling ships for arrival or departure, nothing to do with determining which ships come in or out, and they have no ownership or control over how the port is used. All they get to do is manage the people who run the loading/unloading equipment and providing maintenance for this equipment.

I also learned today that Dubai has a reciprical agreement with the US navy for the port of Dubai. The Navy and US Customs are responsible for operating loading and unloading equipment, customs areas, and other areas of their portion of the port, but the UAE government actually owns and has oversight of port operations.

 

[CableChick]

from a conversation w/ my father ....

our warships dock in UAE with no difficulty. the employees of the us ports "leased" by the UAE will remain u.s. citizens. the coast guard and boarder patrol and customs will continue to be responsible for security.

the only thing that will change are ownership papers!

this is truly a tempest in a teapot.

more to the core issue, when a nation imports much more than it exports -- and for many, many years -- those "worthless" pieces of green paper (dollars) sent overseas are going to return someday ... and not just to buy treasury bonds. they also buy our assets, such as ports and factories.

i see absolutely no problem here. in fact, if politics derails this deal, the u.s. might be seen by some as a bad place to invest ... and when foreign governments stop buying our treasury bonds (which is nothing more than their financing our fedeal debt; something akin to someone else paying your credit card bills), then the u.s. will sink into a DEPRESSION, which is far more severe than a recession.

so much is at stake here .... somewhat less dramatic than i have sketched above; but not that less dramatic.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ken...

Larry,

The major fear most people have about this deal is that they feel it will enable terrorists to bring in a major destructive device, dirty bomb, bio/chem weapon that could do significant damage to us. I can respect that and understand it, BUT.
What I am seeing is what I would have expected to have seen back in the 40s. It is strikingly similar to how many people looked at Orientals back then. For many they were all sneaky Jap bastards, even the Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos and other Pacific islanders. Are all Arabs today’s sneaky bastards?

I don’t think that this is the case, just like back then. I’ve spent time over there in several of the Arab countries and know the differences between various groups of Arabs. These south desert nomads, sitting on their major oil dollars, are nothing like the northern Arabs. These guys survived on sand when that is all they had and they know on which side of the bread the butter goes on. They are survivors and smart. They chose to align with us. That in it self should tell you something.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this and trust me I do understand what you’ve been saying and agree with some of your disdain for the attitude towards our security on this matter but it seems to have been decided already. Our government made that determination and set up the rules as to who can or cannot own these operations.

I just think that this change in ownership will not make us any more vulnerable, given our existing vulnerabilities. In other words, we have bigger worries.

Ken, this is terrible. Here you go again with this conversation about race; I never mentioned it!

Germany? NO
France? NO
Australia? NO
UAE? NO

FOREIGN GOVERNMENT. ANY FOREIGN GOVERNMENT.

Conflict of national interest.

 

[Larry Gude]

That's GREAT!

Okay... I was watching Brit Hume, and bless his heart he's one of the few media types who actually tells the whole story. Someone else might have mentioned this, but Hume offered a lot of detail on this deal that I did not know about. The big point is that I thought the UAE would own the ports, but that is not the case. The only thing this deal involves is the operation and maintenance of the loading and unloading equipment at the ports. The contract holder has nothing to do with port security (which I already knew), nothing to do with scheduling ships for arrival or departure, nothing to do with determining which ships come in or out, and they have no ownership or control over how the port is used. All they get to do is manage the people who run the loading/unloading equipment and providing maintenance for this equipment.

I also learned today that Dubai has a reciprical agreement with the US navy for the port of Dubai. The Navy and US Customs are responsible for operating loading and unloading equipment, customs areas, and other areas of their portion of the port, but the UAE government actually owns and has oversight of port operations.

So, there is NO feasible, plausible way that the power they have over the flow of goods (And did Brit mention they are in charge of security while storing containers?) that could harm the US economy!

Hoo ray!

Suddenly, the potential for conflict of interest between nations evaporates!

So, what's next? What's for sale to any and all foreign nations (as long as we, wink, wink, control 'security' just like we did before 9/11!

Yeah! Whoop-eeeeeee!!!

 

[Larry Gude]

Yeah!

from a conversation w/ my father ....

our warships dock in UAE with no difficulty. the employees of the us ports "leased" by the UAE will remain u.s. citizens. the coast guard and boarder patrol and customs will continue to be responsible for security.

the only thing that will change are ownership papers!

this is truly a tempest in a teapot.

more to the core issue, when a nation imports much more than it exports -- and for many, many years -- those "worthless" pieces of green paper (dollars) sent overseas are going to return someday ... and not just to buy treasury bonds. they also buy our assets, such as ports and factories.

i see absolutely no problem here. in fact, if politics derails this deal, the u.s. might be seen by some as a bad place to invest ... and when foreign governments stop buying our treasury bonds (which is nothing more than their financing our fedeal debt; something akin to someone else paying your credit card bills), then the u.s. will sink into a DEPRESSION, which is far more severe than a recession.

so much is at stake here .... somewhat less dramatic than i have sketched above; but not that less dramatic.

So, of course, because we have ships over there, that is sound basis for them owning terminals and operating our ports?

Great! Tempest! Tespot!

Whoop dee dooo!

What's next!?!?!?! Lords knows, anything to get foreigners to buy us up, T bill, terminal and...what's next?

 

[Larry Gude]

No you don't...

I am the Lorax, I speak for the trees.

...the trees think this is a stupid idea.

 

[vraiblonde]

What I am seeing is what I would have expected to have seen back in the 40s. It is strikingly similar to how many people looked at Orientals back then.

So what? As human animals, we have an (albeit repressed) instinct to avoid those who are different than us. And when we do co-mingle and get burned, it's natural to become even more protective. This is true for all races, not just whites, and only social engineering hippies deny it.

But that is neither here nor there. We're talking about a foreign government having a piece of our ports, which is a vital national interest. Nobody said anything when foreign countries wanted to buy our corporations. Nobody said anything when they wanted to buy up our land. Now they friggin' want our ports, too.

At what point do we draw the line and say, "No - you can't have it"?

We're going to "globalize" ourselves right into oblivion.

 

[vraiblonde]

And, oh dear, here we go:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395502196&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

The parent company of a Dubai-based firm at the center of a political storm in the US over the purchase of American ports participates in the Arab boycott against Israel, The Jerusalem Post has learned.

"Yes, of course the boycott is still in place and is still enforced," Muhammad Rashid a-Din, a staff member of the Dubai Customs Department's Office for the Boycott of Israel, told the Post in a telephone interview.

"If a product contained even some components that were made in Israel, and you wanted to import it to Dubai, it would be a problem," he said.

Those little global economy darlings

No wonder Bush's poll numbers have dropped like a rock.

 

[willie]

Where is Haliburton when you need them?

 

[Larry Gude]

But...

And, oh dear, here we go:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395502196&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull


Those little global economy darlings

No wonder Bush's poll numbers have dropped like a rock.

...they're our friends! Our close partners in the war on Terra! You know, the war that has at it's roots the annhilation of Heb world? How can this be?

Well, let's just ignore that too, while we're at it. After all, foreign companies own this and that and do this and that and...plus, actual security is still done, the 1 out of 100 containers, by us and they'd NEVER have a national conflict of interest and...