I Think I Finally Agree With The ACLU

[FromTexas]

I keep hoping someone is paying attention.

:IWR:

 

[vraiblonde]

I keep hoping someone is paying attention.

I think it's admirable that you've kept the faith in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

[FromTexas]

I think it's admirable that you've kept the faith in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

:2+2=1:

Did you see your smilie?

 

[2ndAmendment]

I think it's admirable that you've kept the faith in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Someone has to try. A small spark can ignite a forest fire.

 

[Larry Gude]

Bruz...

Actually freedom of association means that you can choose to be around anyone you want. If you want to hang out with a bunch of people you hate, you can choose to do that. No one can tell anyone where they can't go or live IRT public property... hence the difference between a closed retirement community (for example) and a town.

As regards your first point, if you can choose to hang around people you DON'T like as well as those you do like, doesn't that also imply that those you choose to hang out with with whom you DON'T like, conversely have the right to NOT associate with you? Where's the line, your doorstep, mainstreet, the city limits?

As I read the original link, the 'civil liberty' limits in question are ones of commercial nature, not an individual associating with another, limiting what a store can sell. I read nothing where residents will be required to do or be this or that. In other words, there seems to be no violation of civil liberty of individuals.

A business, however, is clearly subject to limits that promote the general welfare; segregating like business types, retail with retail, industrial with industrial. It just so happens this community is not making provision for a certain class of goods, as a a community may exclude, say, nuclear power or a drive in move theater.

Where is porn or sex related items for sale, at your doorstep, a civil liberty?


Secondly, 'closed' communities to operate as sub communities and go far in restricting non members freedom of association and movement while offering services; shopping, utilities, maintenance and repairs. It has directors.

Where does that distinction, the difference between, say Leisure World and Olney or Silver Spring, lay?

 

[Larry Gude]

You know darn well people are paying attention...

I keep hoping someone is paying attention.

...to some extent or other and keeping up the fight serves two purposes; TOM, 'top of mind' awareness that fealty to the very words that is the backbone of ALL of our freedoms and liberties, regardless of faith, creed or color, is THE way to go, to argue, and...

Fealty to yourself to fight the fight.

Civility would return to our people overnight if we could return to arguing our politics based on the agreed upon rules, the Constitution and Bill of rights, and away from the anarchy of personal consideration only that is THE threat to ALL of our freedoms and liberty.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...to some extent or other and keeping up the fight serves two purposes; TOM, 'top of mind' awareness that fealty to the very words that is the backbone of ALL of our freedoms and liberties, regardless of faith, creed or color, is THE way to go, to argue, and...

Fealty to yourself to fight the fight.

Civility would return to our people overnight if we could return to arguing our politics based on the agreed upon rules, the Constitution and Bill of rights, and away from the anarchy of personal consideration only that is THE threat to ALL of our freedoms and liberty.

Thanks.

Oh, that those we elect would look to the guidance of the founding documents before proposing any law or ordinance.

There are far too many laws written because someone did not think some action should be done and said, "There ought to be a law.", and so went our liberties slowly but surely.

There are far too many laws, and they are only necessary because common sense and reason does not prevail in many people.

 

[Tonio]

But I doubt that you can find any state, aside from maybe Utah, that has laws that condone a civil government founded on religious laws... but then there's Clearwater and I still can't figure out how the Hell they're getting away with that.

This thread is the first time I've heard of the Scientology business in Clearwater. Maybe I need to get out more.

I think NO goverment should be based on religious laws, because religious dogma is about absolutism and democracy is about freedom of conscience. I think governments based in religious laws back themselves into theological and theocratic corners regarding citizens who belong to other religions. Dogma dictates that people who belong to other religions are evil and don't deserve to live, so those governments regard those citizens as traitors.

I wish the media would follow up on Abdur Rahman and his exile in Italy. It outrages me that any government thinks it has the right to execute people based on their religious beliefs.

 

[Larry Gude]

And you have said...

Thanks.

Oh, that those we elect would look to the guidance of the founding documents before proposing any law or ordinance.
There are far too many laws written because someone did not think some action should be done and said, "There ought to be a law.", and so went our liberties slowly but surely.

There are far too many laws, and they are only necessary because common sense and reason does not prevail in many people.

...that they ain't gonna do it unitl WE demand it.

 

[Larry Gude]

Tonio...

This thread is the first time I've heard of the Scientology business in Clearwater. Maybe I need to get out more.

I think NO goverment should be based on religious laws, because religious dogma is about absolutism and democracy is about freedom of conscience. I think governments based in religious laws back themselves into theological and theocratic corners regarding citizens who belong to other religions. Dogma dictates that people who belong to other religions are evil and don't deserve to live, so those governments regard those citizens as traitors.

I wish the media would follow up on Abdur Rahman and his exile in Italy. It outrages me that any government thinks it has the right to execute people based on their religious beliefs.

...this is just my opinion, but Gudes 9th law of political dynamics states that the bigger you are the mroe likely the adherence to your rules.

It sounds a whole lot better to a whole lot more people to say;

"Do this not because we mere men say so but because it is what (insert diety here) expects of you."

than...

"Do this because I know better and because I said so."

Invoking a higher power.

 

[Tonio]

It sounds a whole lot better to a whole lot more people to say "Do this not because we mere men say so but because it is what (insert diety here) expects of you." than..."Do this because I know better and because I said so." Invoking a higher power.

So are you saying that religious doctrine originated as a tool by authorities to keep citizens in line, or at least has been used that way? That sounds too Marxist to me. Plus, I think it does a disservice to the idea of individual faith.

 

[Larry Gude]

Uh...

So are you saying that religious doctrine originated as a tool by authorities to keep citizens in line, or at least has been used that way? That sounds too Marxist to me. Plus, I think it does a disservice to the idea of individual faith.

...I honestly thought that went without saying.

How does it do a disservice to individual faith?

 

[Tonio]

How does it do a disservice to individual faith?

Because some believers might feel insulted, like you're calling them mindless sheep. I suspect that's not what you mean, but some might disagree.

 

[vraiblonde]

So are you saying that religious doctrine originated as a tool by authorities to keep citizens in line, or at least has been used that way?

WHERE THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN???

Because some believers might feel insulted, like you're calling them mindless sheep.

Hello? Jim Jones ring any bells? How about Scientology or the Moonies? Those nutties who killed themselves over the Halle Bop comet? Most religious zealots ARE mindless sheep. If they don't like being called mindless sheep, they shouldn't act like mindless sheep.

Do you think anyone who thought for themselves would strap a bomb aroudn their waist and go blow up a disco filled with civilians in the name of Allah?

 

[dems4me]

Do you think anyone who thought for themselves would strap a bomb aroudn their waist and go blow up a disco filled with civilians in the name of Allah?

I would (without the civilians) :shrug: I hate disco music

 

[Tonio]

WHERE THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN???

I've been waiting for 2A or Hessian or Dondi to sweep in and condemn you and Larry for allegedly trying to undermine Christianity.

Hello? Jim Jones ring any bells? How about Scientology or the Moonies? Those nutties who killed themselves over the Halle Bop comet? Most religious zealots ARE mindless sheep. If they don't like being called mindless sheep, they shouldn't act like mindless sheep.

Do you think anyone who thought for themselves would strap a bomb aroudn their waist and go blow up a disco filled with civilians in the name of Allah?

You and I agree for the most part. I strongly disagree with the idea of religious doctrine and dogma, which amount to telling people what to believe and what not to believe. But I won't go so far as to condemn all religious faith. For every group of whacked-out zealots, there are a few devout believers who work quietly to make life better for others. I can disagree with the religious beliefs of Mother Teresa or Gandhi or Martin Luther King but still admire them for their work.

 

[vraiblonde]

I've been waiting for 2A or Hessian or Dondi to sweep in and condemn you and Larry for allegedly trying to undermine Christianity.

Who said anything about Christianity?

I strongly disagree with the idea of religious doctrine and dogma, which amount to telling people what to believe and what not to believe.

Nobody is telling you, an American, what to believe or not to believe. You are free to worship as you see fit - or not, as the case may be.

I don't generally think of Mother Theresa, Ghandi or MLK as "wacked out zealots". Not sure what you're trying to say?

 

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

Because some believers might feel insulted, like you're calling them mindless sheep. I suspect that's not what you mean, but some might disagree.

...it is, to me, a fact, a clear, readily prove-able fact that religion has been very much used to govern for centuries. If that offends someone that their faith is/was used as a governing principle, why would that make them feel like sheep? Much of our historical human bloodshed hasn't been in offense that ones religion was the governing power, but in offense that it wasn't.

You said you thought religion should not be used to govern, which I see as unavoidable, I was offering up why I it was so used and so frequently so.
I mean no offense to anyone. At least not on this.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I've been waiting for 2A or Hessian or Dondi to sweep in and condemn you and Larry for allegedly trying to undermine Christianity.

Why? They don't. You are one of the ones that insults Christians.

I came to know the love of God through reasoning. I don't think many Christians are "mindless sheep". Many Christians have advanced college degrees.

Darwin, born 1809, was 22 when he sailed on the Beagle in 1831 and did his observations on Galapagos Is. in 1835 that led him to write "The Origin of Species" published in 1859. I find it amazing that so many people trust their eternal fate to observations made by one person in their mid 20s. That seems unreasoning to me.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...it is, to me, a fact, a clear, readily prove-able fact that religion has been very much used to govern for centuries. If that offends someone that their faith is/was used as a governing principle, why would that make them feel like sheep? Much of our historical human bloodshed hasn't been in offense that ones religion was the governing power, but in offense that it wasn't.

You said you thought religion should not be used to govern, which I see as unavoidable, I was offering up why I it was so used and so frequently so.
I mean no offense to anyone. At least not on this.

It is absolutely true that religion has been used to govern people. There is a vast difference between religion and Christianity, but that is hard to see for anyone who is not a Christian.