Individual rights vs Ebola Quarintines

PJay

Well-Known Member
Chris0nllyn5454155 said:
And what about the flights from other countries where they have a layover, like, I dunno, the first guy that came here with it?

Suspend flights there, and how, exactly, will health workers get there to stop the spread there?


I wish not to get into a back and forth. I express my opinion. Done. There's nothing anyone can say that will change my mind. Nor can I change yours. It really is common sense stuff what needs to be done. I care only for the country I live in and the rest can go to hell. Shut all down until that place over there dies. Let nature do what it does.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
i think you, Psy and I are some of the very few who aren't jumping on the chicken little bandwagon. Unfortunately its not just the pols that are spreading this, its the conservative pundits. the sheep are sucking it down double time.

But this speaks to so many things we allow the government to do in the so-called interest of our safety. For me, the biggest concern is not the quarantining of a single individual and the violation of her rights – yes I am deeply concerned about that – I am far more concerned about how the government might use this as an excuse to widen this span of control; that they could force people into quarantine for just about any reason. The government is never satisfied with just a little control. This starts bringing into mind so many other things we are allowing our government to do that could lead to more nefarious control over our lives: The Patriot Act, NSA collecting of our private communications, gun control, forcing people/private businesses to provide things that go against their faith… In the interest of avoiding some false notion of protecting our safety and ‘civil rights’ we allow the government to chip away at small pieces of our liberties. Then next thing you know we can’t go from point A to point B without having to show our papers. I have posted this over and over and it’s time to post it again:

We will take America without firing a shot.......

We will BURY YOU!

We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism.

We do not have to invade the United States, we will destroy you from within". - Nikita Khrushchev
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
i think you, Psy and I are some of the very few who aren't jumping on the chicken little bandwagon. Unfortunately its not just the pols that are spreading this, its the conservative pundits. the sheep are sucking it down double time.

That's the thing to note in all of this; how what we should or should not be doing about a real problem is based, broadly, not on reason or experience or knowledge but, on emotions and reactions. Deliberately.

It is thoroughly enjoyable and educational learning more and more about how we, the people, really think and act, as a people. It is also bothersome coming to grips with it but, at least it makes it more understandable.

Immigration
Energy
Health
The economy
Foreign policy

We just give it up.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
I wish not to get into a back and forth. I express my opinion. Done. There's nothing anyone can say that will change my mind. Nor can I change yours. It really is common sense stuff what needs to be done. I care only for the country I live in and the rest can go to hell. Shut all down until that place over there dies. Let nature do what it does.

I think there's nothing wrong with a good debate, but if you choose not to look beyond your beliefs, so be it. I'm just saying that quarantines, travel restrictions, etc. are nothing more than responses from the constant bombardment of fear mongering the American people get.

I doubt you care, but since it keeps being brought up, lets look at a few things.

People believe that without a travel ban, infected Africans will flood the United States. Does that mean you believe the U.S. embassy is handing out visas like Halloween candy in affected countries? If you think that, then the solution, beyond implementing more rigorous screening of passengers (which is already happening), would be stricter medical controls for visas. Not a travel ban.

Also, there's no need for a formal travel ban, because there's already a de facto private travel ban to those countries. U.S.-based airlines stopped flying to Ebola-afflicted countries two months ago (to protect their crew and passengers from exposure — and themselves from lawsuits).

A recent study shows that even if the world managed to scale back air traffic flows by 80 percent, it would delay the international spread of the disease by only a few weeks.

http://currents.plos.org/outbreaks/...ed-with-the-2014-west-african-ebola-outbreak/

Of course, as mentioned earlier, this 80% ban is almost undoable, simply because to ban travelers from Ebola affected countries, you'd have to ban flights from many other areas that don't have travel bans. Like Duncan did with his flight from Monrovia to Brussels then to the US.

Also, as mentioned before, health workers traveling to these countries don't have private planes. They are private volunteer groups such as Red Cross and Doctors without Borders that use commercial airlines, so a blanket travel ban would effectively cut off aid to these countries. Potentially opening the door to a much great spread of Ebola. This would only heighten their sense of desperation, increasing their desire to leave, and thus producing political instability, especially if their governments try and stop them due to pressure from the international community. Many African countries have already announced their own travel bans. But it is unlikely that they'll be able to enforce them without very draconian measures in the face of a mass exodus of people, making the spread of the disease across the African continent that much harder to contain.
 

TPD

the poor dad
But this speaks to so many things we allow the government to do in the so-called interest of our safety. For me, the biggest concern is not the quarantining of a single individual and the violation of her rights – yes I am deeply concerned about that – I am far more concerned about how the government might use this as an excuse to widen this span of control; that they could force people into quarantine for just about any reason. The government is never satisfied with just a little control. This starts bringing into mind so many other things we are allowing our government to do that could lead to more nefarious control over our lives: The Patriot Act, NSA collecting of our private communications, gun control, forcing people/private businesses to provide things that go against their faith… In the interest of avoiding some false notion of protecting our safety and ‘civil rights’ we allow the government to chip away at small pieces of our liberties. Then next thing you know we can’t go from point A to point B without having to show our papers. I have posted this over and over and it’s time to post it again:


I agree with you 110%!!
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I think there's nothing wrong with a good debate, but if you choose not to look beyond your beliefs, so be it. I'm just saying that quarantines, travel restrictions, etc. are nothing more than responses from the constant bombardment of fear mongering the American people get.

.

Beliefs have no place in this conversation. They have no place in any conversation save one about religion.

"I believe oil is bad/good" Where does that lead us in a conversation about energy?
"I believe in campaign finance reform" Where does that go?

My point, and this isn't directed at you, is that we, the people, don't start conversations, not in the media, with "who, what, when, where and why" so, we only get around to facts and conversations about better/best actions after we react. And policy reflects that.

I understand it is human nature to react, to fear ebola. I don't wanna get it. However, I know, first hand, from my own life, that, unless we're talking about an immediate threat, simply reacting can make things worse, not better. So, we use our brains;

"Wow. I fear this!"

That should lead to "Now what?'

"Flight restrictions!"

Well, will that help or hurt?

I recognize that I don't CARE. Common sense says it will help!!!!

But, that's not true because of this and this and this...it will, in fact, do more harm.

I don't care! I'm having a reaction here!

OK, so, let's assess....

#### that!!!! :jameo:
 

Amused_despair

New Member
Glad to see the judge ruled against a full quarantine for the nurse in Maine. Shame the government didn't get to keep the ability to lock people up just because other people are scared.
 

Amused_despair

New Member
:shrug:


they ban a class of weapons because if fear


And maybe if someone had stood and made a stand for civil rights back when the first restrictive gun laws were made,in the 1930's wasn't it, then the precedent would not have been set to restrict the 2nd amendment.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
And maybe if someone had stood and made a stand for civil rights back when the first restrictive gun laws were made,in the 1930's wasn't it, then the precedent would not have been set to restrict the 2nd amendment.

1936

Placed limits on automatic weapons and explosives. Not at all unreasonable.
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
1936

Placed limits on automatic weapons and explosives. Not at all unreasonable.

It kind of is unreasonable. Absolutely no reason why I shouldn't be able to own an automatic weapon, nor is it unreasonable to choose to use TNT to take down a tree v a chainsaw.. TNT would be MUCH quicker and probably safer.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
It kind of is unreasonable. Absolutely no reason why I shouldn't be able to own an automatic weapon, nor is it unreasonable to choose to use TNT to take down a tree v a chainsaw.. TNT would be MUCH quicker and probably safer.



C-4 would be safer to store long term
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
1936

Placed limits on automatic weapons and explosives. Not at all unreasonable.



short barreled guns as well

.... before that 1927 Thompsons were mail order

and passage of the law did nothing to reduce gun related crime for Liquor Runners
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
It kind of is unreasonable. Absolutely no reason why I shouldn't be able to own an automatic weapon, nor is it unreasonable to choose to use TNT to take down a tree v a chainsaw.. TNT would be MUCH quicker and probably safer.

My argument, the one I subscribe to, is some sort of understanding that the volume of damage you could do in a short time matters in terms of an individual right to keep and bear arms.

If not explosives, why not an atom bomb, to be extreme about it?

I machine guns, why not a 30mm chain gun?

I would happily trade limits on my over all firepower for clear and sure rights to, at the very least, keep and bear a handgun.
 

Amused_despair

New Member
1936

Placed limits on automatic weapons and explosives. Not at all unreasonable.

Once restrictions are accepted as reasonable on Constitutional Rights than the only thing left is the determining of how reasonable the limits are, and "reasonable" is not a quantitive measurement but instead is based on intangibles that are not easily assigned metrics. If it is reasonalbe that the Right to Bear Arms does not include automatic weapons such as those carried by the standing army answering to the federal government, then why does the average citizen need anything opther than a shot gun for hunting and maybe a small caliber pistol for self-defense? Once the power is given to the government to limit the rights of its citizens, it does not willingly give up that power, and will always seek to expand it. What it takes is someone to stand up and argue against it, to fight in the courts if the populace refuse to fight for their own rights. Just because 99.9% of the citizens choose to not fight for their rights does not mean that everyone else has to accept this decision.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Once restrictions are accepted as reasonable on Constitutional Rights than the only thing left is the determining of how reasonable the limits are, and "reasonable" is not a quantitive measurement but instead is based on intangibles that are not easily assigned metrics. .

Yup. It's so easy when we look at it for what it is.

Our inalienable rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Everything after that, like free speech, do have some sort of limits to them such as falsely cry fire in a crowded theater.
This requires some attention to what goes on, some participation and some reason. If we, as gun folks, want to argue unlimited absolutes, I don't see how that has helped.

:buddies:
 
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