Is Christmas Biblical or Sacred Church Tradition?

[Radiant1]

I believe The earliest church by the believers met "on the first day of the week (Sunday)" way before any "catholic" showed up on the scene. They simply called themselves "Christians, believers, of this way - not catholic - until your church daddies started inventing and embellishing their own brand of Christ's teachings. Just keep patting yourselves on the back, you good rcc'ers. I don't care if you call it a bit T or a little t, as long as it does not infringe on any scriptural gospels, call it whatever you want.

I just call it Merry Christmas!

The Jews worshipped on Saturday, so SOMEONE changed the day to Sunday and did so BEFORE scripture was written. Just because the Church wasn't called Catholic (meaning Universal) until the 2nd century (St. Ignatius 110 AD to be exact* which was approximately only 15 years after John wrote his gospel) doesn't make it a different Church. Until you can produce extant evidence of a church outside of the current Apostolic Churches (and by that I don't mean those Pentacostals who call themselves such but those whom were formed by the Apostles themselves), existing from the time of Jesus to today (I can post the list if you want), then you're going to have to accept that The Way is aka Catholic. I'm guessing they didn't teach you basic Church history in your Sunday school, eh? And btw, your disrespect for the early Church writers also known as Fathers whom you call "daddies" is duly noted.

*The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrneans Ch. 8: "See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."

The burden of proof on you is if December 25th is the actual day. I believe the Orthodox practice Christmas two weeks later.

Oh honey, it's not my burden. I don't care if it's the correct day or not. It's the celebration that matters. As far as I'm concerned if someone celebrates my birthday on the wrong day it is no less a celebration of my birth. I use the date December 25th because that's traditionally the day the Church celebrates it. The question is, why do YOU celebrate Christmas on December 25th? After all, it was Sacred Tradition that gave you the date and you reject Sacred Tradition, yes?

 

[Chuckt]

Oh honey, it's not my burden. I don't care if it's the correct day or not. It's the celebration that matters. As far as I'm concerned if someone celebrates my birthday on the wrong day it is no less a celebration of my birth. I use the date December 25th because that's traditionally the day the Church celebrates it. The question is, why do YOU celebrate Christmas on December 25th? After all, it was Sacred Tradition that gave you the date and you reject Sacred Tradition, yes?

I actually practice rapture Christmas.

December 25th is too hard to change so we worship God like most people do on that day.

I partly believe Christmas was decided on the date by a bishop to convert the pagans who might worship Saturnalia because I'm sure that most people have forgotten when Christ was born including some of His followers..

 

[Radiant1]

I actually practice rapture Christmas.

Rapture Christmas?

December 25th is too hard to change so we worship God like most people do on that day.

I partly believe Christmas was decided on the date by a bishop to convert the pagans who might worship Saturnalia because I'm sure that most people have forgotten when Christ was born including some of His followers..

Fair 'nuff.

 

[Chuckt]

Rapture Christmas?



Fair 'nuff.

Yeah, I think it is good to give some presents early to kids that are waiting.

 

[cheezgrits]

I actually practice rapture Christmas.

December 25th is too hard to change so we worship God like most people do on that day.

I partly believe Christmas was decided on the date by a bishop to convert the pagans who might worship Saturnalia because I'm sure that most people have forgotten when Christ was born including some of His followers..

Smartest thing you've posted. However, the bible does not call for celebration. You are correct, the church placed these christian celebrations in place on the same times as the "pagan" or other celebratory events to ease the people into transition.

But I notice we all agree, it's not the date o tradition that is important, it's the meaning and purpose behind the season.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

I don't care if it's the correct day or not. It's the celebration that matters. As far as I'm concerned if someone celebrates my birthday on the wrong day it is no less a celebration of my birth. I use the date December 25th because that's traditionally the day the Church celebrates it. The question is, why do YOU celebrate Christmas on December 25th? After all, it was Sacred Tradition that gave you the date and you reject Sacred Tradition, yes?

A pagan holiday, that became a religious holiday, that became a shopping holiday! Hooray!!!

 

[Radiant1]

A pagan holiday, that became a religious holiday, that became a shopping holiday! Hooray!!!

Yeah, that's pretty much how it went, at least in the West where corporations are people and consuming goods is the name of the game.

 

[Chuckt]

Oh honey, it's not my burden. I don't care if it's the correct day or not. It's the celebration that matters. As far as I'm concerned if someone celebrates my birthday on the wrong day it is no less a celebration of my birth. I use the date December 25th because that's traditionally the day the Church celebrates it. The question is, why do YOU celebrate Christmas on December 25th? After all, it was Sacred Tradition that gave you the date and you reject Sacred Tradition, yes?

How I feel about tradition and a lot of rules is that it robs the believer from listening to God.

Why don't we do it this way?
The Church's response is "Well, we've always wanted to do it this way."
Why don't we do it this way?
The Church's response is "We've always done it this way.

What if God wants to do it this way?

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Other translations use the word "nullified" because you nullify the word of God through your traditions.

So look at the Sabbath as a tradition:

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

I wasn't made for the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for me.

Therefore I conclude that I rule over traditions of men with Christ and they are beneath me because I wasn't made for the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for me.

And the same goes for the rest of your traditions. I'll throw them into the dump because I listen to God and not man.

King James Bible
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

http://biblehub.com/acts/5-29.htm

 

[Radiant1]

How I feel about tradition and a lot of rules is that it robs the believer from listening to God.

Why don't we do it this way?
The Church's response is "Well, we've always wanted to do it this way."
Why don't we do it this way?
The Church's response is "We've always done it this way.

What if God wants to do it this way?

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Other translations use the word "nullified" because you nullify the word of God through your traditions.

So look at the Sabbath as a tradition:

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

I wasn't made for the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for me.

Therefore I conclude that I rule over traditions of men with Christ and they are beneath me because I wasn't made for the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for me.

And the same goes for the rest of your traditions. I'll throw them into the dump because I listen to God and not man.

King James Bible
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

http://biblehub.com/acts/5-29.htm

Ummm, no. That's not the Church's response, which makes the rest of your post nothing but a straw man argument. You obviously don't understand what Sacred Tradition actually is. And, again, the very scripture you espouse as the sole source of God's Word is one result of Sacred Tradition and in fact shows Sacred Tradition at work. So, ironically and sadly for you, to reject Tradition is to reject the Bible. Since you're wallowing around in ignorant darkness, let me enlighten you.

Sacred Tradition (BIG T), is the early church before the bible, the teachings that were handed down by the Apostles and are every bit as authoritative, binding, and infallible as Sacred Scripture. Together they are both the Word of God. Why? Because Sacred Scripture is one of the results of Sacred Tradition; hence, why it's called "sacred". Sacred Tradition is not subject to change any more than scripture is subject to change. They are complimentary and derived from the same Divine Source for the same end. Examples of this are the sacraments, the Mass, the teaching authority of the Apostles, Sunday worship, and the Bible itself.

Tradition (little t) are things that are subject to change such as praying the rosary, eating fish on Fridays, wearing a cross necklace, or even the extra things we do outside of Mass at Christmas such as a tree, a wreath, giving presents, etc. In other words, anything that wasn't handed down from the Apostles and their successors.

Tradition BIG T - what the Apostles handed down through the ages to their successors.
Tradition little t - stuff we do just because we've always done it, because we like it, or for whatever other reason.

I highly encourage you to read http://www.catholic.com/tracts/scripture-and-tradition.

In this discussion it is important to keep in mind what the Catholic Church means by tradition. The term does not refer to legends or mythological accounts, nor does it encompass transitory customs or practices which may change, as circumstances warrant, such as styles of priestly dress, particular forms of devotion to saints, or even liturgical rubrics. Sacred or apostolic tradition consists of the teachings that the apostles passed on orally through their preaching. These teachings largely (perhaps entirely) overlap with those contained in Scripture, but the mode of their transmission is different.

They have been handed down and entrusted to the Churchs. It is necessary that Christians believe in and follow this tradition as well as the Bible (Luke 10:16). The truth of the faith has been given primarily to the leaders of the Church (Eph. 3:5), who, with Christ, form the foundation of the Church (Eph. 2:20). The Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who protects this teaching from corruption (John 14:25-26, 16:13).

As a reminder for you, scripture only Christian, even Paul the Apostle commanded the Thessalonians to adhere to what he had taught them orally. But by all means throw the Church's Tradition in the dump if you so wish but you better throw your Bible along with it.

 

[Chuckt]

As a reminder for you, scripture only Christian, even Paul the Apostle commanded the Thessalonians to adhere to what he had taught them orally. But by all means throw the Church's Tradition in the dump if you so wish but you better throw your Bible along with it.

Sorry but that isn't what the Bible or Paul says:

New Living Translation
Remember your leaders who taught you the word of God. Think of all the good that has come from their lives, and follow the example of their faith.

http://biblehub.com/nlt/hebrews/13-7.htm

Did you know the word "oral" is missing? It says "the word of God"! It is missing because you added it to the word of God. Who do you think you are? God?

If God wants to go in a different direction than your leaders than I'm following God.

 

[cheezgrits]

Sorry but that isn't what the Bible or Paul says:

New Living Translation
Remember your leaders who taught you the word of God. Think of all the good that has come from their lives, and follow the example of their faith.

http://biblehub.com/nlt/hebrews/13-7.htm

Did you know the word "oral" is missing? It says "the word of God"! It is missing because you added it to the word of God. Who do you think you are? God?

If God wants to go in a different direction than your leaders than I'm following God.

You know, the fact that you keep cutting and pasting from different bible "translations" ought to tell you something.

 

[Chuckt]

You know, the fact that you keep cutting and pasting from different bible "translations" ought to tell you something.

What should it tell me?

 

[Radiant1]

Sorry but that isn't what the Bible or Paul says:

New Living Translation
Remember your leaders who taught you the word of God. Think of all the good that has come from their lives, and follow the example of their faith.

http://biblehub.com/nlt/hebrews/13-7.htm

Did you know the word "oral" is missing? It says "the word of God"! It is missing because you added it to the word of God. Who do you think you are? God?

If God wants to go in a different direction than your leaders than I'm following God.

Bless your heart. Who do you think he was referring to??? It wasn't a letter or a book because obviously the letter was just then being written when he refers to, "Your LEADERS WHO TAUGHT YOU...". That right there is Sacred Tradition. The word "oral" doesn't even have to be there to understand this anymore than the word Trinity has to be there to understand God is Triune.

Oh, and since cheezgrits mentioned your convenient use of a different translation, let me call you out so everyone knows why:

Hebrews 13:7
NIV - Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you.
ESV - Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God.
Berean study - Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you.
Berean literal - Remember those leading you, who spoke the word of God to you,
NASB - Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you
King James - Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God
ISV - Remember your leaders, those who have spoken God's word to you.
Aramaic Bible in English - Be mindful toward your Leaders who have spoken with you the word of God

Everyone can view the various translations themselves. http://biblehub.com/hebrews/13-7.htm

spo·ken /ˈspōkən/
1. past participle of speak.
adjective
1. speaking in a specified way.
"a blunt-spoken man"

speak/spēk/
verb
1. say something in order to convey information, an opinion, or a feeling.
"in his agitation he was unable to speak"
2. talk to in order to reprove or advise.
"she tried to speak to Seth about his drinking"


Were you hoping everyone was too stupid to notice?

What should it tell me?

It might not tell you anything, but it tells the rest of us that you deliberately set out to deceive. It also tells us that you are desperate to cling to your anti-Catholic indoctrination to the point of being dishonest.

 

[PsyOps]

A pagan holiday, that became a religious holiday, that became a shopping holiday! Hooray!!!

The one thing Christians can't control is what society decides to do with these sorts of things. Society has decided to make Christmas into a massive festival of buying lots of stuff and giving it to other people. The horror that Christmas would result in such a thing - gift giving. Sure, we have the commercialism and profiteering; but at it's core, it's still about giving. Still a good message. Still at the core of what Christ preached.

 

[Chuckt]

The one thing Christians can't control is what society decides to do with these sorts of things. Society has decided to make Christmas into a massive festival of buying lots of stuff and giving it to other people. The horror that Christmas would result in such a thing - gift giving. Sure, we have the commercialism and profiteering; but at it's core, it's still about giving. Still a good message. Still at the core of what Christ preached.

It was opened up to the masses with the incorporation of Santa Claus.
In that way, people who don't necessarily believe in God participate.

 

[Chuckt]

Bless your heart. Who do you think he was referring to??? It wasn't a letter or a book because obviously the letter was just then being written when he refers to, "Your LEADERS WHO TAUGHT YOU...". That right there is Sacred Tradition. The word "oral" doesn't even have to be there to understand this anymore than the word Trinity has to be there to understand God is Triune.

Oh, and since cheezgrits mentioned your convenient use of a different translation, let me call you out so everyone knows why:

Hebrews 13:7
NIV - Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you.
ESV - Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God.
Berean study - Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you.
Berean literal - Remember those leading you, who spoke the word of God to you,
NASB - Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you
King James - Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God
ISV - Remember your leaders, those who have spoken God's word to you.
Aramaic Bible in English - Be mindful toward your Leaders who have spoken with you the word of God

Everyone can view the various translations themselves. http://biblehub.com/hebrews/13-7.htm

spo·ken /ˈspōkən/
1. past participle of speak.
adjective
1. speaking in a specified way.
"a blunt-spoken man"

speak/spēk/
verb
1. say something in order to convey information, an opinion, or a feeling.
"in his agitation he was unable to speak"
2. talk to in order to reprove or advise.
"she tried to speak to Seth about his drinking"


Were you hoping everyone was too stupid to notice?



It might not tell you anything, but it tells the rest of us that you deliberately set out to deceive. It also tells us that you are desperate to cling to your anti-Catholic indoctrination to the point of being dishonest.

I quoted a translation that I thought would be more understandable.
The point I'm trying to make is that they taught the word of God. It doesn't say they taught tradition.
All that fuss over nothing.

 

[b23hqb]

It was opened up to the masses with the incorporation of Santa Claus.
In that way, people who don't necessarily believe in God participate.

There are lots of those that ignore God - so much so that they want to take every reference of "Christ" out of it.

 

[Bird Dog]

It was opened up to the masses with the incorporation of Santa Claus.
In that way, people who don't necessarily believe in God participate.

So, you're saying Sacred Tradition should only be taught to those like you who "understand", not to the "masses" who among them might be some who want to know who was this Jesus character and why is everyone making a fuss over him.

Genius

 

[Bird Dog]

I quoted a translation that I thought would be more understandable.
The point I'm trying to make is that they taught the word of God. It doesn't say they taught tradition.
All that fuss over nothing.

You only quote a translation that fits your agenda....

 

[Radiant1]

I quoted a translation that I thought would be more understandable.

No, you quoted a translation that suited your needs. Since you were at biblehub surely you saw all the other translations that used the word "spoke" or "speak", and you deliberately avoided those and chose to use the one and only translation that used the words teach instead with the intent to deceive. It doesn't really matter because the meaning is the same, and it means Sacred Tradition.

The point I'm trying to make is that they taught the word of God. It doesn't say they taught tradition.
All that fuss over nothing.

Teaching the Word of God IS Tradition, and that's done in various ways aside from relying on writing alone. That's the point I've been trying to make to both you and b23 for weeks now. And yes, even Hebrews 13:7 amongst others says as much. How do you suppose the early Church propagated the Gospel before anything was written down? BY ORALLY SPEAKING IT TO OTHERS. To deny Sacred Tradition is to deny the early church and ultimately the bible as well.