Is Christmas Biblical or Sacred Church Tradition?

[cheezgrits]

And Catholics don't make any mistakes because they let the Pope and the priests do the heavy thinking for them? Or is it because they make concessions to Protestants that they need organizations like Catholic Answers? Because they don't have the answers or because they make mistakes? The reason why I look everything up is because people make mistakes, people don't know how to do the math, people lie, people are lazy and don't do their homework, people are misinformed. Tell Catholics to just listen and not to think because they might make a mistake and what you have is a self fulfilling prophecy. They believe everything they're told, they don't make a mistake and when the priest makes a mistake, they believe it, they don't check things out and they get the priest's errors. So if the priest doesn't know then how will the Catholic know? Better not to think because they don't want to be like the Protestant hypocrite, right? Jesus came for the sick and a lot of people don't want to become Christian because they don't want to be a hypocrite. So the answer is not to go to the spiritual doctor because they'll be a hypocrite so they should stay home and stay spiritually sick. That's your answer. I get it.

Where no oxen are, the crib is clean: but much increase is by the strength of the ox.
http://biblehub.com/proverbs/14-4.htm

Everyone is afraid of new people coming into ministry because they might make mistakes but the Bible says where no oxen are, the crib is clean. Don't let your people get involved, Onel0126 because they might make mistakes and if they think for themselves, they might learn where the Catholic church has made mistakes just like I learn from my mistakes and other's mistakes.

I bought a new book: "Roman Catholic Tradition / Claims and Contradictions" by William Webster. I was just thinking about the argument that we should go by Roman Catholic Tradition. Which? The Catholic Tradition that didn't give the people the Bible for 1545 years or the 470 years that they did? The Catholic Tradition that the people didn't have the Apocrapha for 1545 years or the 470 years that they did?

I happen to be happier being a Christian than being a Catholic after talking to you and your Catholic friends because all of the posts I am doing makes me all the more sure that you're wrong and we're right because I'm allowed to make mistakes, I'm allowed to check things out and use my brain and I've found the Catholic faith not only a disaster in theology but you're all misled.

"Because, as the apostle Peter informs us in his second letter, the Bible is more reliable than that which he had seen with his eyes and heard with his ears because it was written by men impelled by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:16-21). It would seem obvious that if the Bible is more reliable than what Peter himself had seen and heard, it is also more reliable than any tradition which contradicts it."-Answers to My Catholic Friends by Thomas F. Heinz.

2 Peter 1:16 ¶ For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2 Peter 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

You are no better than radicalized terrorist that hate in the name of religion. You are no better than the regimes of religion that persecute, hate and try to eliminate other religions. Hatred of religion is hatred, there are no extremes.

You are a hateful person, bigoted, small minded and a disgrace to christianity.

I hope that whatever god, karma or justice there is in this life or later deals with you accordingly.

 

[Chuckt]

Chuckie,
Your bigotry, hate and narcissism will consume you one day......

If what you said is true, it follow that anyone who disagrees with Catholicism is a bigot, has hate and narcissism according to you. That would be any religion and their followers that disagree with Catholicism.

One day you are going to realize that we were right and that you wish you listened and that we were only trying to save lost people because we cared enough to bother with you and incur verbal insults and abuse.

 

[Chuckt]

You are no better than radicalized terrorist that hate in the name of religion. You are no better than the regimes of religion that persecute, hate and try to eliminate other religions. Hatred of religion is hatred, there are no extremes.

You are a hateful person, bigoted, small minded and a disgrace to christianity.

I hope that whatever god, karma or justice there is in this life or later deals with you accordingly.

(Comment Deleted)

 

[cheezgrits]

We all know you hate Christianity which is why you are here.

Care to show me a post I've made that states I hate Christianity? Can you provide data that everyone or the "we" you speak of think I hate Christianity? Are you divinely endowed to know my purpose here?

 

[cheezgrits]

If what you said is true, it follow that anyone who disagrees with Catholicism is a bigot, has hate and narcissism according to you. That would be any religion and their followers that disagree with Catholicism.

One day you are going to realize that we were right and that you wish you listened and that we were only trying to save lost people because we cared enough to bother with you and incur verbal insults and abuse.

1:11 Keep yourselves therefore from murmuring, which profiteth nothing, and refrain your tongue from detraction, for an obscure speech shall not go for nought: and the mouth that belieth, killeth the soul.

 

[littlelady]

We all know you hate Christianity which is why you are here.

Since, Cheez has been here for 5 years, I doubt you have read the majority of his posts. He has contributed a lot of knowledge to this forum. He follows the Red Road and I love reading all the info he has ever posted about that. I have Native American heritage on my mother's side, so it is very interesting to me. Your comment about him is so way off, it doesn't even register on the scale. He is very accepting of all discussion, open to commentary, very much a gentleman, considers every ones' opinion, replies intelligently, and is a great addition to this forum. I don't understand why you are so closed minded, nasty, and mean; especially with those who don't agree with you.

I think if you and Cheez had a competition of how many others y'all could convert to y'all's way of thinking, Cheez would win by a landslide.

 

[Midnightrider]

Come on... this is all that honest.

Gift giving was born out of the Magi giving gifts to baby Jesus
There are a lot of stories and legends as to how the Christmas tree came. Some claim they are pagan in origin and some claim there Christian roots. The stories are so old that there is no way of knowing what the origin of the Christmas tree is. Lights/candles on the tree were supposed to represent the light of Christ.

The wreath was originally a symbol of victory, later adapted by Christians as a symbol of victory over death. There is no pagan origin to it.

The custom of the stockings is not pagan in origin. Although the story is of legend and can't be proven, St. Nicholas was a real person, a Christian. But the tradition of the stocking came from St. Nicholas giving gold to a poor man that couldn't afford to get his daughters married. St. Nicholas put the gold in the girls' stockings that were hanging over the fireplace to dry.

Since Christmas and the traditions/symbols we use to celebrate are so old, it's a matter of what you choose to believe to their origins: Pagan or Christian. To me, it really doesn't matter... At it's core, the holiday celebrates the birth of our Savior; and this is at the core of how Christians celebrate it.

Not so much....

About two thousand years before the Christian era Mut-em-ua, the virgin Queen of Egypt, was said to have given birth to the Pharaoh Amenkept (or Amenophis) III, who built the temple of Luxor, on the walls of which were represented:

1) The Annunciation: the god Taht announcing to the virgin Queen that she is about to become a mother.

2) The Immaculate Conception: the god Kneph (the holy spirit) mystically impregnating the virgin by holding a cross, the symbol of life, to her mouth.

3) The Birth of the Man-god.

4) The Adoration of the newly born infant by gods and men, including three kings (or Magi?), who are offering him gifts. In this sculpture the cross again appears as a symbol.

In another Egyptian temple, one dedicated to Hathor, at Denderah, one of the chambers was called "The Hall of the Child in his Cradle"; and in a painting which was once on the walls of that temple, and is now in Paris, we can see represented the Holy Virgin Mother with her Divine Child in her arms. The temple and the painting are undoubtedly pre-Christian.

Therefore, we find that long before the Christian era there were already pictured -- in pagan places of worship -- virgin mothers and their divine children, and that such pictures included scenes of an Annunciation, an Incarnation, and a Birth and Adoration, just as the Gospels written in the second century A.D. describe them, and that these events were in some way connected with the God Taht, who was identified by Gnostics with the Logos.

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/originsVBmyth.html

 

[Chuckt]

You are no better than radicalized terrorist that hate in the name of religion. You are no better than the regimes of religion that persecute, hate and try to eliminate other religions. Hatred of religion is hatred, there are no extremes.

You are a hateful person, bigoted, small minded and a disgrace to christianity.

I hope that whatever god, karma or justice there is in this life or later deals with you accordingly.

If speaking out against Catholicism makes me a bigot then what makes you or the other Catholics not a bigot for speaking out against Protestantism? If that is your basis for being a bigot then perhaps you should examine yourself.

 

[Chuckt]

Care to show me a post I've made that states I hate Christianity? Can you provide data that everyone or the "we" you speak of think I hate Christianity? Are you divinely endowed to know my purpose here?

Do you really want me to read through thousands of posts to try to prove it?

 

[cheezgrits]

Do you really want me to read through thousands of posts to try to prove it?

Yep, sure do. You made the accusation, now back it up or apologize.

 

[cheezgrits]

If speaking out against Catholicism makes me a bigot then what makes you or the other Catholics not a bigot for speaking out against Protestantism? If that is your basis for being a bigot then perhaps you should examine yourself.

Again, show me where I have spoken against Protestantism. I do believe you are bearing false witness, are you not? Isn't that a sin and a violation of your ten commandments?

 

[Amused_despair]

Do you really want me to read through thousands of posts to try to prove it?

"I said something about you and now you want me to prove it???"

 

[Radiant1]

Again, show me where I have spoken against Protestantism. I do believe you are bearing false witness, are you not? Isn't that a sin and a violation of your ten commandments?

Yes, it is. He also did so again by saying the Catholic Church didn't use the bible until the 1500s. I already showed him his error in that in this very thread but yet he willfully persists. He read it in an anti-Catholic polemic so it must be true regardless of the evidence to the contrary. Ironically, he himself said that people lie, are lazy and don't do their homework, and are misinformed. Of course the other irony is that he claims to be right while fully admitting to making mistakes. The Holy Spirit by Its very nature cannot make mistakes so therefore...(unlike chuck, some of us can do the math).

Oh, and chuck, you might want to pay closer attention to the scripture you quote because Peter could only have been referring to the OT and the Septuagint OT at that (which you don't use), and 2Peter 1:20-21 is in direct contradiction to your Sola Scriptura doctrine. (I'd laugh at you but I'm trying to be nicer for Inkah's sake).

And while I'm at it, your premise that Catholics have to listen to priests is yet another straw man. Strictly speaking, priests have no magisterial authority, so therefore a Catholic is not required to assent to a priest.

Seriously, you need to know what the hell it is you're talking about before you attempt to talk about it. And by the way, Catholic Answers exists for people like *you*. I'm thinking it might be wise for you to get your own house in order before attempting to make another go at the Catholics or anyone else for that matter.

 

[PsyOps]

Not so much....
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/originsVBmyth.html

Look, there are dozens (maybe hundreds) of varying explanations for the traditions we practice for Christmas. I suppose we pick the one that suits our thinking. You like to believe every tradition is born out of pagan traditions. I like to believe many are Christian/biblical oriented. Since celebrating Christmas is so old, there is no way of knowing for certain where the traditions come from. I tend to believe they are a combination of pagan and biblical. Bottom line... Christmas is a Christian holiday regardless of the origin of the tradition we observe. That is what matters to me.

 

[CleanTheSlateInSMC]

Chuckie,
Your bigotry, hate and narcissism will consume you one day......

Has that day come for you yet, or are you still striving for consumption?

 

[Midnightrider]

Look, there are dozens (maybe hundreds) of varying explanations for the traditions we practice for Christmas. I suppose we pick the one that suits our thinking. You like to believe every tradition is born out of pagan traditions. I like to believe many are Christian/biblical oriented. Since celebrating Christmas is so old, there is no way of knowing for certain where the traditions come from. I tend to believe they are a combination of pagan and biblical. Bottom line... Christmas is a Christian holiday regardless of the origin of the tradition we observe. That is what matters to me.

no, i look at the evidence and decide which one came first. There are plenty of archeological records that predate christianity and include the virgin birth, the three wise men and the giving of gifts were part of their theology. I dont have a dog in the fight so i dont need to try to find a story that fits my preconceived notions.

As for christimas being a christian holiday, i agree compelety. No matter how we got to where we are, this is how christians celebrate christmas.

 

[b23hqb]

Christmas is a tradition, and nothing wrong with tradition as long as it does not add to/delete from/obfuscate the gospels. Just keep Christmas in perspective of what it was all about on that day of the birth of the Savior - he was born to die for us.

Celebrate His birth, and remember His death. It's probably impossible to be a Christian if one does not have that in their heart.

Merry Christmas to all, and be safe.

 

[Chuckt]

Look, there are dozens (maybe hundreds) of varying explanations for the traditions we practice for Christmas. I suppose we pick the one that suits our thinking. You like to believe every tradition is born out of pagan traditions. I like to believe many are Christian/biblical oriented. Since celebrating Christmas is so old, there is no way of knowing for certain where the traditions come from. I tend to believe they are a combination of pagan and biblical. Bottom line... Christmas is a Christian holiday regardless of the origin of the tradition we observe. That is what matters to me.

Pagan religions borrowed from Judaism and Christianity:

Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions

by Ronald Nash

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0169a.html

 

[Chuckt]

Yes, it is. He also did so again by saying the Catholic Church didn't use the bible until the 1500s. I already showed him his error in that in this very thread but yet he willfully persists. He read it in an anti-Catholic polemic so it must be true regardless of the evidence to the contrary. Ironically, he himself said that people lie, are lazy and don't do their homework, and are misinformed. Of course the other irony is that he claims to be right while fully admitting to making mistakes. The Holy Spirit by Its very nature cannot make mistakes so therefore...(unlike chuck, some of us can do the math).

Oh, and chuck, you might want to pay closer attention to the scripture you quote because Peter could only have been referring to the OT and the Septuagint OT at that (which you don't use), and 2Peter 1:20-21 is in direct contradiction to your Sola Scriptura doctrine. (I'd laugh at you but I'm trying to be nicer for Inkah's sake).

And while I'm at it, your premise that Catholics have to listen to priests is yet another straw man. Strictly speaking, priests have no magisterial authority, so therefore a Catholic is not required to assent to a priest.

Seriously, you need to know what the hell it is you're talking about before you attempt to talk about it. And by the way, Catholic Answers exists for people like *you*. I'm thinking it might be wise for you to get your own house in order before attempting to make another go at the Catholics or anyone else for that matter.

They searched the scriptures daily to see if these things were so and they did not go to sacred tradition because God's word was their authority. In other words, what God says is more important than tradition.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The Old Deluder Act (1647)
From Records of the Governor and Company of the Massachusetts Bay in New England (1853), II: 203

It being one chief project of that old deluder, Satan, to keep men from the knowledge of the Scriptures, as in former times by keeping them in an unknown tongue, so in these latter times by persuading from the use of tongues, that so that at least the true sense and meaning of the original might be clouded and corrupted with false glosses of saint-seeming deceivers; and to the end that learning may not be buried in the grave of our forefathers, in church and commonwealth, the Lord assisting our endeavors.

http://www.constitution.org/primarysources/deluder.html

If you knew your history, the unknown tongue was Latin and the reason why Protestants started schools was so that Christians could have the scriptures.

Why was education affected by the Protestant Reformation?

Best Answer: Before Protestantism, most education in the Western World was at religious schools, Priests held a monopoly on local education.

Also, Latin was the Bible Language, until the mid-1950's. Most of the liturgy of the Church, and readings from Bible were done in Latin only.
Few people could read their Bibles, and often they could not understand what was being said in church, they took it "on faith".
The Pope of Rome, ruled all of Christiandom.

After the "Reformation", the Bible was translated into local languages, and then the local common people needed an education to read it.
Protestantism taught that each man or woman could get salvation directly through either faith, or good works, or both. They didn't need the clergy as "intermediaries".

Each local denomination ruled it's own church, made up its own rules, rather than take directions from Rome.

This lead to many problems. But it gave a great boost to modern education, because now schools were more independent from Rome too, and each local area decided what to teach in their schools.

Still, for a long time, most schools had religious instruction, and were supported by church funding. Not until after the American Revolution, did people start talking about separation of church an state.

Public schools were opened, that were supported by local property taxes, or the selling of state land. That really changed education, as then professionals, and secularism replaced "bible" based teachings.

What some people think started in the 20th century, secularism, actually started with te Protestant Reformation, and the allowance for "free thinkers" rather than those who had to accept domination of chuch dogma.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080914065619AAxtIHO

 

[cheezgrits]

Pagan religions borrowed from Judaism and Christianity:

Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions

by Ronald Nash

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0169a.html

Again, wrong. But I respect your viewpoint.
Early Christianity developed in an era of the Roman Empire during which many religions were practiced, that are, due to the lack of a better term, labeled paganism. Paganism is commonly used to refer to various, largely unconnected religions from the time period, such as the Greco-Roman religions of the Roman Empire, including the Roman imperial cult, the various mystery religions, monotheistic religions such as Neoplatonism and Gnosticism, and more localized religions practiced both inside and outside the Empire. During the Middle Ages the term was also adapted to refer to religions practiced outside the former Roman Empire, such as Germanic paganism and Slavic paganism.

From the point of view of the early Christians these religions all qualified as ethnic (or gentile, ethnikos, gentilis, the term translating goyim, later rendered as paganus) in contrast with Second Temple Judaism. Since the Council of Jerusalem, the Christian Apostles accepted both Jewish and pagan converts, and there was a precarious balance between the Jewish believers, insisting on the obedience to the Mosaic Laws by all Christians, on one hand, and Gentile Christians, developed in the gentile missionary context, on the other, resulting in many Christian views on the Old Covenant.

Also, please compose your apology that owe me or delete the post you made about me hating christianity. Thank you.