Liberal Companies Working to Destroy Democracy

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
The oil industry and OPEC nations have a lot of money that they use to bribe US politicians. I don't see oil or gas cars going away anytime soon.
Even if oil never gets used again to transport vehicles - virtually every plastic product on the planet is made from oil.

And I don't see electric tanks and fighter jets appearing anytime soon.
 
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rmorse

Well-Known Member
Which is effectively rather often, for me. Heading to the Eastern shore and back for my kid's sports - driving to Baltimore and DC for another kid's doctors and surgeons - and then going to the airport to pick someone up. In a pinch if I need to drive to Delaware to pick up my aunt and drive her to Jersey and then come back home. Going on vacation to the cape or the mountains. ANY camping trip with my son - and it has to be rugged enough to handle steep inclines and roads that aren't nicely paved. Unless that battery can recharge fast - it's not going to be useful, and unless charging stations are everywhere or they make SOME kind of useful "extra" battery - it won't be an option. Because chances are very good that while there will almost always be a gas station SOMEWHERE nearby - in the desert, mountains and so on - charging stations won't be there.

I do admit that for someone who just drives around in the city or never ventures more than twenty miles from their house - except "road trips" - I can see how it could be useful. My sister gets around in a golf cart. Electric. She never ever goes further than five miles from her house, has no family living with her, lives alone and any further trip she just uses Uber. Electric is fine for her.




Which is kind of like if you want speed in a car, try a Porsche or Ferrari. Not happening. If a product can't compete price-wise with what I have, not buying it. I remember when I was a young engineer one of my associates dropped a ton on a new sports car. I said what the hell are you wasting all that money for? He said because it went very fast. I said yeah but ONE you can't drive that fast legally and two, you do all your driving on Rockville Pike and 270. You'll have all that horsepower but still creep along in traffic. He answered yeah but it's KNOWING I could go that fast. I answered I'd rather NOT know at all, and keep the extra money in my pocket. I don't drop money on luxury that serves no purpose.

I could buy the "right stuff" but I'd be throwing money away. Not a good return on investment. I'd be spending money just to show off how much money I spent.



If you added up every price tag for every new car I have ever bought - including nearly new cars - it MIGHT come to 60k. I largely draw the line at one fourth a yearly salary - beyond that, you're throwing away money. TECHNICALLY you're not supposed to spend more than a quarter of your take home for mortgage or rent - that's never been true. But I can't afford more than a fifth of my take home for a car. Never have.




Lots of things were supposed to be the future. I could write a list. I'm old enough to remember when asbestos and fiberglass were going to be the future. My folks had stuff like electric knives for carving things growing up. They're stupid. They reek of gadgetry when something simpler works better.

My little brother is a gearhead - his opinion is still if you can own a car that costs less than a thousand a year to maintain - you're way ahead of ANY new car you can buy.

Unless they make LENR cars that run damned near forever - I don't see gas going anywhere anymore than I see paper being replaced by digital. I'm amazed at how many innovations have occurred over the years and how often people will say things like - damn, you really can't beat a vinyl record. Sometimes innovation means a product that is easier to manufacture but not one that is better or cheaper to use.
A lot to unpack here...lemme try.

Which is effectively rather often, for me. Heading to the Eastern shore and back for my kid's sports - driving to Baltimore and DC for another kid's doctors and surgeons - and then going to the airport to pick someone up. In a pinch if I need to drive to Delaware to pick up my aunt and drive her to Jersey and then come back home. Going on vacation to the cape or the mountains. ANY camping trip with my son - and it has to be rugged enough to handle steep inclines and roads that aren't nicely paved. Unless that battery can recharge fast - it's not going to be useful, and unless charging stations are everywhere or they make SOME kind of useful "extra" battery - it won't be an option. Because chances are very good that while there will almost always be a gas station SOMEWHERE nearby - in the desert, mountains and so on - charging stations won't be there.
I'm not saying that electric cars are replacing gas cars right now. This would be akin to someone recognizing computers/calculators as replacing pencil and paper when solving an equation and someone saying "until that computer can fit in my backpack, it ain't gonna happen.

The reality is, those scenarios that you just mentioned are going to be here FAST. Tesla's super chargers charge to 50% battery in under 20 minutes. Furthermore, their charging stations are within 150 miles of 99% of the population. Yes, places where there aren't gas stations most likely would not have a charging station nearby either. You plan those trips carefully, regardless of your fuel type.


Which is kind of like if you want speed in a car, try a Porsche or Ferrari. Not happening. If a product can't compete price-wise with what I have, not buying it. I remember when I was a young engineer one of my associates dropped a ton on a new sports car. I said what the hell are you wasting all that money for? He said because it went very fast. I said yeah but ONE you can't drive that fast legally and two, you do all your driving on Rockville Pike and 270. You'll have all that horsepower but still creep along in traffic. He answered yeah but it's KNOWING I could go that fast. I answered I'd rather NOT know at all, and keep the extra money in my pocket. I don't drop money on luxury that serves no purpose.
I think you're stuck on speed/hp (maybe because I spoke about the 0-60 times earlier?) but that's actually not what I was referring to by outperforms. I was referring to electric tools that work better than their gas equivalent (and are lighter too). There are some that do the job better, quieter, more efficiently and with less weight and maintenance costs. I.e., outperforms.

Back to the electric cars, it's the same thing. Outperforms in the sense that there FAR less maintenance. It's get in and go. They self-diagnose issues, talk to each other on the road (can be a good or bad, depending on your optimism levels), have better traction, etc. We can talk 0-60 and lap times too, but I'm talking about the $40k ones. Not the high-performance sports car ones.

If you added up every price tag for every new car I have ever bought - including nearly new cars - it MIGHT come to 60k. I largely draw the line at one fourth a yearly salary - beyond that, you're throwing away money. TECHNICALLY you're not supposed to spend more than a quarter of your take home for mortgage or rent - that's never been true. But I can't afford more than a fifth of my take home for a car. Never have.
This is an argument for how much to spend on a vehicle, not whether or not electric cars are the future. They are; they're new technology. It's like airbags. Just because the newer pricier models had airbags doesn't mean that they weren't the future and that cost will be driven down to the point where all models had them. (And yes, I recognize the flaw in that analogy...I'm not trying to suggest that electric cars will be required by the DOT). At the end of the day, electric cars will comprise the vast majority of new cars being sold very very very soon. Like, probably within a decade.

Lots of things were supposed to be the future. I could write a list. I'm old enough to remember when asbestos and fiberglass were going to be the future. My folks had stuff like electric knives for carving things growing up. They're stupid. They reek of gadgetry when something simpler works better.
Asbestos is an absolutely amazing product that only failed because of its health affects when broken/crushed/released fibers. The only reason it failed was due to health; if they discover that electric cars cause cancer, then yea...they'll change. They still won't fail; they'll eliminate the cancer causing properties. They still share a lot of similarities to their gas counterparts.

Electric motors ARE simpler than gas now. That's exactly why there's a huge transition. This isn't some gadget "as seen on tv" thing we're talking about here. This is a market that's worth billions and billions, if not trillions. Tesla is worth $450 Billion, according to google. 10 years ago, yea. We can agree on that, that it might not work. Back when we were trying to see what Fisker Karma could do, yea. That was a gimmick. Today? Dude. Tesla is double the size of Toyota. Toyota!!!! This isn't some new gimmick that's going to go away lol.

My little brother is a gearhead - his opinion is still if you can own a car that costs less than a thousand a year to maintain - you're way ahead of ANY new car you can buy.

Unless they make LENR cars that run damned near forever - I don't see gas going anywhere anymore than I see paper being replaced by digital. I'm amazed at how many innovations have occurred over the years and how often people will say things like - damn, you really can't beat a vinyl record. Sometimes innovation means a product that is easier to manufacture but not one that is better or cheaper to use.
Agreed; from a financial standpoint, yea. Buy older cars and play with them. I personally love Volvo 850 turbos. You can pick them up for $3k, manual swap them in a weekend and drop another $2k into it and have a car pushing 350-400hp and stupid reliable. But that being said, that doesn't negate the fact that electric cars are the way forward. That's just talking about whether or not you should buy a pricy car. I'm not debating that; I'm saying that electric cars are heading towards being the vast majority of cars being sold. You can figure out how to buy a cheap electric car in 20 years if you want; that doesn't speak to them borderline replacing gas cars though.

Paper is being replaced by digital....the majority of actions occur digitally now. I bought my home and signed everything digitally. I do contracts for a living and we have completely switched to electronic filing only. You go to the doctors office and sign in digitally. You make a return and don't need your receipt; everything is digital. I do my taxes and everything is digital except for one signature page I send in. That doesn't mean paper doesn't exist; it just means that digital is the future.

At this point, in 2020, anyone saying that electric cars aren't better or cheaper to use don't understand the current electric cars and are still thinking about cars like the Fisker Karma. It would be like someone saying you can't use the internet efficiently on a cell phone...they might be thinking that because they're used to the old flip phones with extremely limited internet capabilities and have no idea what a new iPhone or android are capable of.
 

rmorse

Well-Known Member
I was wrong with Tesla's market capitalization. They just hit $500 Billion today.

EDIT: Gas companies have been on the decline. The Detroit Big Three have dropped down to $414 Billion combined. Tesla and other EV companies have gone from $1 Trillion to $1.7 Trillion over the last five years.

We've seen an absolute explosion in EV technology. This is past the point of "oh, its a new gimmick"...
 

rmorse

Well-Known Member
An interesting discussion, lots to process. At my point in life, not seeing any need.
I'm not trying to say they're for everyone, at all. I'm just saying they're the future. Smart phones are the future; my mother still uses a flip phone because she doesn't want to deal with a smart phone. I completely understand someone not needing an electric car (or any car). But they're still the future, regardless.

Wild times we're living in.
 

rmorse

Well-Known Member
And I don't see electric tanks and fighter jets appearing anytime soon.
This is pretty wild...AUSTRALIA is driving the push to electric tanks. That's pretty wild considering how vast and dead Australia is.


Ok, I'm done overloading you with links lolol.
 

glhs837

Power with Control
Which is effectively rather often, for me. Heading to the Eastern shore and back for my kid's sports - driving to Baltimore and DC for another kid's doctors and surgeons - and then going to the airport to pick someone up. In a pinch if I need to drive to Delaware to pick up my aunt and drive her to Jersey and then come back home. Going on vacation to the cape or the mountains. ANY camping trip with my son - and it has to be rugged enough to handle steep inclines and roads that aren't nicely paved. Unless that battery can recharge fast - it's not going to be useful, and unless charging stations are everywhere or they make SOME kind of useful "extra" battery - it won't be an option. Because chances are very good that while there will almost always be a gas station SOMEWHERE nearby - in the desert, mountains and so on - charging stations won't be there.
So, to speak to this point. Here's a trip to the Eastern Shore from Lex Park. I cant speak to other car makers, their charging solutions are still a patchwork that's not really integrated like this. In a Tesla, you input the destination and it routes you through the most efficient path to include stops at their own Supercharger network. Lots of places you might stay in town have whats called Destination Chargers so you can charge at your....:) Takes a hair longer than that same trip in a gas car if you didnt stop at all. They are rugged enough to handle anything an equivalent car can. If you need real offroad, you need the upcoming Cybertruck :) As for the value of new vs used and capability. You not are buying these because they are super fast (the slowest one I tested was only about 6.5 0-60 or so). That's just part of the package. Normal driving it's like any other car, albeit with incredible safety and safety systems.

https://www.tesla.com/trips#/?v=M3_2020_StandardRangePlus&o=Lexington Park, MD, USA_Lexington Park 8, Bay St Mary's County@38.2575517,-76.4620928&s=&d=Ocean City, MD, USA_Ocean City 10, Ocean City Worcester County@38.3365032,-75.0849058

Here's the big map.

 

glhs837

Power with Control
I was wrong with Tesla's market capitalization. They just hit $500 Billion today.

EDIT: Gas companies have been on the decline. The Detroit Big Three have dropped down to $414 Billion combined. Tesla and other EV companies have gone from $1 Trillion to $1.7 Trillion over the last five years.

We've seen an absolute explosion in EV technology. This is past the point of "oh, its a new gimmick"...

Yeah, Baby!!!!!! Glad I bought into an IRA when I did three years back, and damn glad I added to that back in September. Analysts are finally waking up to all the things coming down the pike as realities, not pipe dreams. Once Giga Shanghai went from mud lot to making cars in 10 months, the idea that Berlin and Texas can do the same seems more realistic. I also think they are understanding Battery Day a bit better. The path to a +300 mile range five seater that costs under 30K without incentives is pretty clear. It wont be a Model 3, but at that price point, it doesnt need to be.
 

Bare-ya-cuda

Well-Known Member
California has tax is 50.5 cents a gallon. That’s around 6-7 billion dollars a year in tax revenue. Electric cars become the norm where do you suppose Californian is going to make up that lost revenue from?
Same applies across all states.
 

rmorse

Well-Known Member
California has tax is 50.5 cents a gallon. That’s around 6-7 billion dollars a year in tax revenue. Electric cars become the norm where do you suppose Californian is going to make up that lost revenue from?
Same applies across all states.
When they become the norm, they most likely will institute a “miles driven” tax.
 

PeoplesElbow

Well-Known Member
Haha yea that’s why I said the future, not now. Give it time. We’ve come a really really long way already. There’s electric cars that have the same range as gas, outperform gas cars in their class and recharge in under an hour at charging stations. And at $40k. The technology has caught up and passed the gas cars and is rapidly catching up to bikes. Trucks are the next segment and they will catch up and pass gas trucks within 5 years.
Not exactly, a visit to the Tesla forums will find you a ton of people unhappy about the range reduction when it is cold. It is a property of lithium batteries that they have reduced efficiency with reduced temperatures.
 

PeoplesElbow

Well-Known Member
I can use my rechargeable leaf blower for 75 minutes if I keep it on low... it last about 10 minutes if I use the turbo to blast the nooks and crannies. Same will happen with cars and trucks. Batteries lose ability to maintain charge as we recharge them over time. There is a big expense in replacing batteries in these electric vehicles. Seems to me owners need to start a savings account for new batteries same year they invest 40k fir their new rechargeable car.
Toyota hybrid batteries easily last 10+ years, they are actually warrientied for 8 years. You can get a nom-OEM replacement for less than 2k. By the time you need a battery you will have saved enough on brake jobs to pay for the battery, as hybrids and electrics are notoriously easy on brakes.
 

rmorse

Well-Known Member
Not exactly, a visit to the Tesla forums will find you a ton of people unhappy about the range reduction when it is cold. It is a property of lithium batteries that they have reduced efficiency with reduced temperatures.
I’m talking the brand new ones, not the several years ago technology. It’s rapidly evolving.
 
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