Liberal Companies Working to Destroy Democracy

[PsyOps]

I unequivocally, without a doubt, agree. I’m just saying that regardless of that forcing, we’ve turned the corner on EVs. Of course, it took a separate company (Tesla) to do it instead of Government Motors trying to force it with the Volt.

It's a long corner for me. Most can't afford, let alone don't even want to spend, at the lowest end nearly $40,000. You have to order it. They don't have widespread access to places for repair and routine maintenance. We have decades before we're in a place where affordable and ready access to this kind of long-distance electric car.

But, we need to extend this conversation to other means of transportation. What do we do about semi-trucks, trains, airplanes, buses, etc...? There is no electric technology, that I know of, that will haul 80 tons across the country.

 

[glhs837]

It's a long corner for me. Most can't afford, let alone don't even want to spend, at the lowest end nearly $40,000. You have to order it. They don't have widespread access to places for repair and routine maintenance. We have decades before we're in a place where affordable and ready access to this kind of long-distance electric car.

But, we need to extend this conversation to other means of transportation. What do we do about semi-trucks, trains, airplanes, buses, etc...? There is no electric technology, that I know of, that will haul 80 tons across the country.

EDITED to hange 50,000 to 500,000.

Decades? Oh no. Affordable and ready access is at most a decade. Look at what Tesla done in a decade. They are on track to produce 500,000 vehicles this year and more than a million next year as Shanghai doubles production and Berlin and Texas begin production. Of course, that doesn't count other makers like VW and GM and Ford, although those last two dont really have any existing plans for lower price models yet. And the used ones for less money are coming, pending the release of lower priced new ones in the next 2-3 years. This was a search within 200 miles of Lexington Park, 24K to 39K. Dropping that top number to 35K still gets you 67 cars.

Autotrader - page unavailable

Repairs, you don't generally use a dealership, they come to you for most things. Routine maint, there just isnt much. Cabin air filter. Brakes get so little use they really never wear out. No spark plugs, no engine air filter, no fuel system. Replace the tires.

Ships and plane, nothing yet. Semis, 80 tons, nope, but not bad. 0ver 600 miles of range at a total weight of 40 metric tons. And yes, uphill cuts that, but every hill you go up has a down also, and you get range back on downslopes as regenerative braking feeds power back into the batteries. That forst article was with the old battery tech, it's since been confirmed that the Semi will use the new cells that cost less to make and have a 16% increase in range over the old ones assuming same pack size.

Tesla Semi Prototype Spotted Hauling 75,000-Pound Load Through Northern California

California Highway Patrol members spoke to the truck's driver, who said the test mule was "exceeding" its 600-mile range estimate.

www.thedrive.com

Tesla Semi electric truck to have up to 621 miles of range, says Elon Musk - Electrek

Elon Musk made new comments about the Tesla Semi program, Tesla’s upcoming electric semi truck, and said that the vehicle will eventually have up to 1,000 km (621 miles) of range. This new range is going to be achieved, thanks to Tesla’s new in-house battery cells and battery pack technology...

electrek.co

.

Busses, some folks are doing them, they sorta seem a simple case. But semis are a greater pollution source, what with a lot of city buses switching to propane or other alt fuels, so semis are a better target.

 

[rmorse]

Decades? Oh no. Affordable and ready access is at most a decade. Look at what Tesla done in a decade. They are on track to produce 50,000 vehicles this year and more than a million next year as Shanghai doubles production and Berlin and Texas begin production. Of course, that doesn't count other makers like VW and GM and Ford, although those last two dont really have any existing plans for lower price models yet. And the used ones for less money are coming, pending the release of lower priced new ones in the next 2-3 years. This was a search within 200 miles of Lexington Park, 24K to 39K. Dropping that top number to 35K still gets you 67 cars.

Autotrader - page unavailable

Repairs, you don't generally use a dealership, they come to you for most things. Routine maint, there just isnt much. Cabin air filter. Brakes get so little use they really never wear out. No spark plugs, no engine air filter, no fuel system. Replace the tires.

Ships and plane, nothing yet. Semis, 80 tons, nope, but not bad. 0ver 600 miles of range at a total weight of 40 metric tons. And yes, uphill cuts that, but every hill you go up has a down also, and you get range back on downslopes as regenerative braking feeds power back into the batteries. That forst article was with the old battery tech, it's since been confirmed that the Semi will use the new cells that cost less to make and have a 16% increase in range over the old ones assuming same pack size.

Tesla Semi Prototype Spotted Hauling 75,000-Pound Load Through Northern California

California Highway Patrol members spoke to the truck's driver, who said the test mule was "exceeding" its 600-mile range estimate.

www.thedrive.com

Tesla Semi electric truck to have up to 621 miles of range, says Elon Musk - Electrek

Elon Musk made new comments about the Tesla Semi program, Tesla’s upcoming electric semi truck, and said that the vehicle will eventually have up to 1,000 km (621 miles) of range. This new range is going to be achieved, thanks to Tesla’s new in-house battery cells and battery pack technology...

electrek.co

.

Busses, some folks are doing them, they sorta seem a simple case. But semis are a greater pollution source, what with a lot of city buses switching to propane or other alt fuels, so semis are a better target.

This whole conversation has been so frustrating lol. I feel like a lot of people in this thread don’t realize how far EVs have come in the past 5 years.

 

[glhs837]

This whole conversation has been so frustrating lol. I feel like a lot of people in this thread don’t realize how far EVs have come in the past 5 years.

Not at all, people are listening, I think. It's easy to forget, when you follow it (and I only really started when I bought some Tesla stock about three years back) exactly what sorts of information gets bandied about in the "normal" channels. Tesla crashes, man burns to death!!!! Of course, he hit a tree going 110mph. Leaf owners get rooked on low mileage dead battery packs, same for early Prius owners. The squeaky wheel gets the ink. ONe reason places like Cleantechnica and others thrive, becuase millions of people are interested in the other side of the story.

Took a self described caveman buddy of mine to test drive a Model 3 on a recent work trip to Seattle. Man, was he blown away. So was I, but I expected it a bit more. Having owned multiple vehicles that were better than 6 seconds 0-60, I expected fast, but not that crazy max torque delivery.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

This whole conversation has been so frustrating lol. I feel like a lot of people in this thread don’t realize how far EVs have come in the past 5 years.

I was one of the first people in the hybrid game back in the 90s, I was part of a team that converted a Chevy Lumina to CNG and electric motor. That was in 1996, we upped the MPG to 40 using a 4 cylinder Saturn engine, a 60kW motor, almost 400 lbs of lead acid batteries and a 10 gallon CNG cylinder.

It wasn't until last year that I would buy one. You have to take everything Elon Musk says with a grain of salt, much of the good news is highlighted for driving stock price while the bad is ignored.

 

[glhs837]

I was one of the first people in the hybrid game back in the 90s, I was part of a team that converted a Chevy Lumina to CNG and electric motor. That was in 1996, we upped the MPG to 40 using a 4 cylinder Saturn engine, a 60kW motor, almost 400 lbs of lead acid batteries and a 10 gallon CNG cylinder.

It wasn't until last year that I would buy one. You have to take everything Elon Musk says with a grain of salt, much of the good news is highlighted for driving stock price while the bad is ignored.

You think Tesla bad news is ignored? Hell, that's far more common than the good news. Last big press conference, the media didn't understand it technically and panned it so hard the stock took a nose dive. I take his timelines, generally speaking, with a grain of salt, but he's technically been spot on. If you are referring to shareholder quarterlies, well, every company does that. And Model Y launched early, Shanghai came online early, Berlin looks to be on the same track.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

You think Tesla bad news is ignored? Hell, that's far more common than the good news. Last big press conference, the media didn't understand it technically and panned it so hard the stock took a nose dive. I take his timelines, generally speaking, with a grain of salt, but he's technically been spot on. If you are referring to shareholder quarterlies, well, every company does that. And Model Y launched early, Shanghai came online early, Berlin looks to be on the same track.

By investors it is, mostly.

Musk claimed that Chinese built model 3s would not be exported, not true.

Range consistently overstated by 15-20%, where others like Nio understate range slightly.

Ill give him a pass on the superchargers no longer being free, everyone knew that wouldn't last.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

Here is a pretty good read on the range reporting

The Secret Adjustment Factor Tesla Uses to Get Its Big EPA Range Numbers

How Tesla puts distance between itself and the competition while still playing by the EPA's rules.

www.caranddriver.com

 

[glhs837]

By investors it is, mostly.

Musk claimed that Chinese built model 3s would not be exported, not true.

Range consistently overstated by 15-20%, where others like Nio understate range slightly.

Ill give him a pass on the superchargers no longer being free, everyone knew that wouldn't last.

I would say investors, at least ones like myself, don't ignore bad news but rather understand it in the larger context. I don't see exports from China as either bad news or a lie. I see it as a simple change in plan. If Shanghais ramp was faster and smoother than expected, no reason not to use those cars to help fill the pipelines to Europe and Asia where customers can wait months for a car from the US. I imagine once Berlin ramps, Chinese exports to Europe will drop off.

As far as range are you talking about EPA vs real world?

 

[PeoplesElbow]

As far as range are you talking about EPA vs real world?

Yes, most people's range starts at 70% of that range and it only goes down from there depending on tire and wheel choice.

 

[WingsOfGold]

And there's nothing wrong with that. Loved mine back when I had one. Loved my overpowered turbo 4, and love my 99 and 98 BMW inline sixes and the sons 2010 turbo BMW inline six. Love the opposed twin in my motorcycle. We'll all be be dead when gas engines stop being relevant, but our kids (depending, of course) will see the day that gas engines will be as rare as body on frame cars, and thier grandkids will see the day they are as rare as steam cars.

Most likely true, everything has it's drawbacks... my C3 windshield wipers shiit the bed when I desperately needed them today!

 

[PsyOps]

This whole conversation has been so frustrating lol. I feel like a lot of people in this thread don’t realize how far EVs have come in the past 5 years.

I do realize it come a long way; but the transition of millions and millions of gas-fueled vehicles to electric just isn't going to happen very quickly. A lot of people will want to remain traditionalists and stay with gas fueled vehicles. My main argument is, I don't want this to be forced on us by government; especially in the name of a false narrative - global warming. It has to be something that benefits the people far better than driving gas vehicles. Before I jump into any sort of EV, I want statistics that show the cost benefit of EV vs GV. That would include how much it would cost to replace the batteries. We're not anywhere near that point. I jumped into the hybrid without knowing the enormous cost of replacing the batteries after owning it for such a short period of time.

So, while battery technology has moved pretty fast, I have no stats that show the reliability and cost long term.

 

[PsyOps]

Decades? Oh no. Affordable and ready access is at most a decade. Look at what Tesla done in a decade. They are on track to produce 50,000 vehicles this year and more than a million next year as Shanghai doubles production and Berlin and Texas begin production. Of course, that doesn't count other makers like VW and GM and Ford, although those last two dont really have any existing plans for lower price models yet. And the used ones for less money are coming, pending the release of lower priced new ones in the next 2-3 years. This was a search within 200 miles of Lexington Park, 24K to 39K. Dropping that top number to 35K still gets you 67 cars.

Autotrader - page unavailable

Repairs, you don't generally use a dealership, they come to you for most things. Routine maint, there just isnt much. Cabin air filter. Brakes get so little use they really never wear out. No spark plugs, no engine air filter, no fuel system. Replace the tires.

Ships and plane, nothing yet. Semis, 80 tons, nope, but not bad. 0ver 600 miles of range at a total weight of 40 metric tons. And yes, uphill cuts that, but every hill you go up has a down also, and you get range back on downslopes as regenerative braking feeds power back into the batteries. That forst article was with the old battery tech, it's since been confirmed that the Semi will use the new cells that cost less to make and have a 16% increase in range over the old ones assuming same pack size.

Tesla Semi Prototype Spotted Hauling 75,000-Pound Load Through Northern California

California Highway Patrol members spoke to the truck's driver, who said the test mule was "exceeding" its 600-mile range estimate.

www.thedrive.com

Tesla Semi electric truck to have up to 621 miles of range, says Elon Musk - Electrek

Elon Musk made new comments about the Tesla Semi program, Tesla’s upcoming electric semi truck, and said that the vehicle will eventually have up to 1,000 km (621 miles) of range. This new range is going to be achieved, thanks to Tesla’s new in-house battery cells and battery pack technology...

electrek.co

.

Busses, some folks are doing them, they sorta seem a simple case. But semis are a greater pollution source, what with a lot of city buses switching to propane or other alt fuels, so semis are a better target.

I just saw on Fox about the Tesla semi. The first thing I was wanting to see was this thing in action - pulling a load for 600 miles without a charge. Don't just put your really cool looking vehicle on a stage, show it to us in action. What about trains hauling 150 cars loaded with steel and other goods? Is there a plan for airplanes? Power plants?

Don't forget that this conversation is about getting us to 0 carbon by 2050. And how does this happen if other countries don't play along? Think about the Middle East, whose economy is almost solely dependent on oil. We're really going to convince an entire region to abandon the strength of their economies and put them into poverty?

 

[PsyOps]

Oh, and what will Musk do about his StaceX program?

 

[PsyOps]

 

[glhs837]

I do realize it come a long way; but the transition of millions and millions of gas-fueled vehicles to electric just isn't going to happen very quickly. A lot of people will want to remain traditionalists and stay with gas fueled vehicles. My main argument is, I don't want this to be forced on us by government; especially in the name of a false narrative - global warming. It has to be something that benefits the people far better than driving gas vehicles. Before I jump into any sort of EV, I want statistics that show the cost benefit of EV vs GV. That would include how much it would cost to replace the batteries. We're not anywhere near that point. I jumped into the hybrid without knowing the enormous cost of replacing the batteries after owning it for such a short period of time.

So, while battery technology has moved pretty fast, I have no stats that show the reliability and cost long term.

Tesla Model 3 Cost of Ownership Slightly Cheaper Than a Camry | Deepwater

We’ve updated our 5-year cost of ownership study comparing a Tesla Model 3 to a Toyota Camry. The comparison gives us a look at how the Model 3 cost compares to a mass-market sedan. The original study from 2017 can be found here. In 2017, our model concluded that while the Model 3 value proposition…

loupventures.com

There's other comparisons out there, but they all show about the same thing. If you compare it to something more in its feature/price class the number tilt even more in its favor. If the batteries can be expected to last 300-500 thousand miles, why include that in cost of ownership? Engine replacement isn't included in the cost of ownership, is it?

Long term data on the older Model S show a sharp inital decline of about 5% of range in the first 50,000 miles, but then it levels off and out to and past 150,000 miles, you might see another 5%. And keep in mind that the older Model S uses an older chemistry compared to the Model 3.

None of this applies to other makers, who buy their batteries from vendors. Here's an interesting article.

A look at Tesla battery degradation and replacement after 400,000 miles

In this new installment of our series on the highest-mileage Tesla Model X (and one of the highest mileage EVs...

electrek.co

 

[glhs837]

Oh, and what will Musk do about his StaceX program?

What is the question, exactly?

 

[glhs837]

Seems to have his facts right. And it's a safe bet that the Semi will use the new cells, as they are building a new battery factory right there in Texas.

 

[rmorse]

I do realize it come a long way; but the transition of millions and millions of gas-fueled vehicles to electric just isn't going to happen very quickly. A lot of people will want to remain traditionalists and stay with gas fueled vehicles. My main argument is, I don't want this to be forced on us by government; especially in the name of a false narrative - global warming. It has to be something that benefits the people far better than driving gas vehicles. Before I jump into any sort of EV, I want statistics that show the cost benefit of EV vs GV. That would include how much it would cost to replace the batteries. We're not anywhere near that point. I jumped into the hybrid without knowing the enormous cost of replacing the batteries after owning it for such a short period of time.

So, while battery technology has moved pretty fast, I have no stats that show the reliability and cost long term.

I don’t think anyone is arguing for it being jammed down our throat.

Yes, it will happen very quickly; within 10 years.

Yes, people won’t give up their gas vehicles just like people didn’t give up their pre-airbag vehicles or carburetor vehicles or lap seatbelt vehicles or wooden frame vehicles. They’re still out there (and there’s still companies making carburetor or wooden frame vehicles). That doesn’t mean that fuel injection wasn’t the future or metal frames wasn’t the future.

I understand you have to prematurely replace your battery; that doesn’t mean that all EV batteries fail at 50,000 miles. The EVs of today are not comparable to your experience with EVs; they aren’t even close to the same vehicle. I don’t talk about Gremlin’s or Pinto’s or Model T’s when talking about reliability issues of gas motors because it’s dated examples.

 

[PsyOps]

What is the question, exactly?

Launching a battery powered rocket.