Mary had a little lamb..........

[rack'm]

<img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/dborzi/forumpix/websize/lamb.jpg">

 

[Vince]

 

[Penn]

 

[camily]

Lovin' it Rack'm.

 

[forever jewel]

 

[Shetiger]

 

[brendar buhl]

Isn't this an oversimplification of what's wrong with society?

 

[mygoldnhorse]

Great post!

 

[2ndAmendment]

Isn't this an oversimplification of what's wrong with society?

Nope.

Everything goes better with Jesus.

Thanks rack'm.

 

[Bustem' Down]

I don't agree, but if majority changes it, that's why they have private schools.

 

[Midnightrider]

Nope.

Everything goes better with Jesus.

Thanks rack'm.

actually, lots of things go better without, governement and schools to name just two. One thing our founding fathers did get right.

nothing wrong with having faith, but yours isnt the only one, and therefore there is no reason it should be forced onto the multitudes in public schools

 

[2ndAmendment]

actually, lots of things go better without, governement and schools to name just two. One thing our founding fathers did get right.

nothing wrong with having faith, but yours isnt the only one, and therefore there is no reason it should be forced onto the multitudes in public schools

I can only speak from experience. When I was in the public schools in Maryland, we had prayer in school. There were fights of course, but no one ever killed anyone. Some even brought guns to school to hunt before and after school and this was in P.G. County.

Your understanding of the First Amendment is certainly a liberal one.

Amendment I (1791)

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

You will notice that the amendment only puts a restriction on Congress. It does not limit state or local governments. It is commonly thought that the First Amendment is a separation of church and state. It is not. As to what the Founders thought, you should read what they said. Here is a quote from George Washington.

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors." -- George Washington (Thanksgiving Proclamation, 3 October 1789) Reference: George Washington: A Collection, W.B. Allen, ed. (543)

 

[Midnightrider]

I can only speak from experience. When I was in the public schools in Maryland, we had prayer in school. There were fights of course, but no one ever killed anyone. Some even brought guns to school to hunt before and after school and this was in P.G. County.

proves nothing, a different time and plce with different problems. If their hadn't been prayer in school then it wouldn't have been different

Your understanding of the First Amendment is certainly a liberal one. You will notice that the amendment only puts a restriction on Congress. It does not limit state or local governments. It is commonly thought that the First Amendment is a separation of church and state. It is not. As to what the Founders thought, you should read what they said. Here is a quote from George Washington.

and your understanding is certainly a christian one- ignoring the fact that it is commonly practiced that church and state are to be separated, and this view is gennerally upheld by the SCOTUS.

I'm never said that the founders werent religious people, but it is obvious by the inclusion of the first amendmend that they didn't want folks like you (those who feel their religious views are the only correct ones) to dictate to the rest of the country our religious options

 

[2ndAmendment]

proves nothing, a different time and plce with different problems. If their hadn't been prayer in school then it wouldn't have been different

It was a different time, but the place was close enough; certainly more urban that Southern Maryland. People were different. Most people were in church on Sunday morning. Prayer in school brings to mind that there is an entity, God, who is ever watchful and to whom everyone will answer to eventually. Brings a different perspective to the day; one that is not quite so self centered and is more respectful of others. Our society has lost much of it civility in its "being smarter" and dismissing God as irrelevant.

and your understanding is certainly a christian one- ignoring the fact that it is commonly practiced that church and state are to be separated, and this view is gennerally upheld by the SCOTUS.

I'm never said that the founders werent religious people, but it is obvious by the inclusion of the first amendmend that they didn't want folks like you (those who feel their religious views are the only correct ones) to dictate to the rest of the country our religious options

No. My understanding is not a Christian one; it is the one expressed by the Founders at its writing. What is common practice and what is upheld by the SCOTUS may be the current law of the land, but the SCOTUS has violated a former SCOTUS decision, Marbury v. Madison. http://www.grifent.com/docsLinks/docs/MarburyVMadison/MarburyVsMadison.htm Which, among other things, states that the Constitution is superior to any law passed by the legislature, and if a law is contradictory to the meaning of the Constitution, it is the law that is overruled. It proffers the concept that the Constitution must be interpreted in manor in which it was constructed. In other words, if the meaning of the words change or ideas change, the meaning or idea that was correct at the time of the writing is the construction that is to be used in the interpretation of the Constitution. Many recent SCOTUS actions have acted contrary to this concept.

And you couched your premise in the Founding Fathers and the current interpretation by the SCOTUS of the First Amendment is not what the Founding Fathers had in mind.

 

[Midnightrider]

It was a different time, but the place was close enough; certainly more urban that Southern Maryland. People were different. Most people were in church on Sunday morning. Prayer in school brings to mind that there is an entity, God, who is ever watchful and to whom everyone will answer to eventually. Brings a different perspective to the day; one that is not quite so self centered and is more respectful of others. Our society has lost much of it civility in its "being smarter" and dismissing God as irrelevant.

while there may be a correlation, there is no cause/effect relationship in your example.

No. My understanding is not a Christian one; it is the one expressed by the Founders at its writing. What is common practice and what is upheld by the SCOTUS may be the current law of the land, but the SCOTUS has violated a former SCOTUS decision, Marbury v. Madison. http://www.grifent.com/docsLinks/docs/MarburyVMadison/MarburyVsMadison.htm Which, among other things, states that the Constitution is superior to any law passed by the legislature, and if a law is contradictory to the meaning of the Constitution, it is the law that is overruled. It proffers the concept that the Constitution must be interpreted in manor in which it was constructed. In other words, if the meaning of the words change or ideas change, the meaning or idea that was correct at the time of the writing is the construction that is to be used in the interpretation of the Constitution. Many recent SCOTUS actions have acted contrary to this concept.

And you couched your premise in the Founding Fathers and the current interpretation by the SCOTUS of the First Amendment is not what the Founding Fathers had in mind.

your opinion is skewed by your blind faith, you can't see that the majority don't want prayer in school, and that the founders didn't want religion intertwined with government. you are forgeting that this country was founded by people seeking religious freedom. And any government that incorporates a specific religion would limit the freedoms of those practicing any other flavor of religion.

 

[2ndAmendment]

while there may be a correlation, there is no cause/effect relationship in your example.


your opinion is skewed by your blind faith, you can't see that the majority don't want prayer in school, and that the founders didn't want religion intertwined with government. you are forgeting that this country was founded by people seeking religious freedom. And any government that incorporates a specific religion would limit the freedoms of those practicing any other flavor of religion.

My faith is not blind. My eyes are wide open. I didn't forget anything. You apparently didn't do your homework. The Founders did not impose or want separation of Government and God. What they sought to prevent was the imposition by government of a particular religion on the people as the king of England had done.

The wording of the First Amendment is plain. "Congress shall make no law ..." The subject of the sentence is Congress. The action effects no other entity except the Congress. Reading meaning beyond that is a false interpretation according to the SCOTUS Marbury vs. Madison ruling.

 

[Midnightrider]

My faith is not blind. My eyes are wide open. I didn't forget anything. You apparently didn't do your homework. The Founders did not impose or want separation of Government and God. What they sought to prevent was the imposition by government of a particular religion on the people as the king of England had done.

Its clear that they did want separation of government and religion though

The wording of the First Amendment is plain. "Congress shall make no law ..." The subject of the sentence is Congress. The action effects no other entity except the Congress. Reading meaning beyond that is a false interpretation according to the SCOTUS Marbury vs. Madison ruling.

again you focus on the one case (which has been overruled- not violated as you put it) which makes your point instead of looking at the liteny of evidence that indicates this country was founded on and currently has as the law of the land a separation....

 

[2ndAmendment]

Its clear that they did want separation of government and religion though




again you focus on the one case (which has been overruled- not violated as you put it) which makes your point instead of looking at the liteny of evidence that indicates this country was founded on and currently has as the law of the land a separation....

The evidence of the Founders' intention is in my favor. The construction of the sentence in English is in my favor. It is only lawyers that argue over the meaning of the word "is."

You and I will not agree, so further discussion is pointless.

 

[forever jewel]

The evidence of the Founders' intention is in my favor. The construction of the sentence in English is in my favor. It is only lawyers that argue over the meaning of the word "is."

You and I will not agree, so further discussion is pointless.

Let me try to understand: Are you saying that you, of all people, know what is best for this country? Maybe you should run for a political office, so we can knock you off your pretentious, high horse.

 

[Midnightrider]

The evidence of the Founders' intention is in my favor. The construction of the sentence in English is in my favor. It is only lawyers that argue over the meaning of the word "is."

You and I will not agree, so further discussion is pointless.

Is that the sound of someone getting on their high horse and riding off?