Dondi
Dondi
you probably answered this before in this thread.... but what day of he week was the Passover lamb slaughtered?
Hmmmm....No, I haven't heard it before. Could you enlighten me, please?
Matthew 12:40
- Thread starter rstrats
- Start date
Hmmmm....No, I haven't heard it before. Could you enlighten me, please?
you probably answered this before in this thread.... but what day of he week was the Passover lamb slaughtered?
Check this link out and you'll be more confused than ever.
http://www.centuryone.com/crucifixion.html
Tons of good info on this topic, which is why I will not be dogmatic on the exact day of the crucifixion.
Maybe you're thinking of the paschal lamb that I believe could also be the passover lamb.
I'm not scholarly enough to bet my life on any date.
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PsyOps
Pixelated
Sometimes wonder what the underlying motive is for bringing up these discussions; quibbling over non-issues. We've seen so many of these benign discussions turn into a 'if you're not doing this or believing that you're not saved'.
PsyOps
Pixelated
Dondi,
re: "Perhaps an explanation from a Rabbi might clear things up. He tends to believe that Christ was crucified on Wednesday and that the three days/nights is NOT an idiom:"
But the OP is requesting writing that proves that it IS an idiom - specifically that it is a common idiom.
re: "Perhaps an explanation from a Rabbi might clear things up. He tends to believe that Christ was crucified on Wednesday and that the three days/nights is NOT an idiom:"
But the OP is requesting writing that proves that it IS an idiom - specifically that it is a common idiom.
Well into the new year, maybe someone new looking in will know of examples as requested in the OP and clarified in further posts. And again, remember that the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. As stated, there are other topics that do that. However, there are some who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic/figure of speech/colloquial language to try to explain the missing 3rd night, which would have to be the case with a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection. But in order to legitimately say that it was employing common, idiomatic/figure of speech/colloquial language, one would have to know of other instances where a daytime or a night time was predicted to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise.
Maybe a rewording will make it a bit more clear.
1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth"
2. There are those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.
3. Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.
4. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.
5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of those mentioned above say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.
6. I am simply asking anyone who thinks it was common, to provide examples to support that belief; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred.
1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth"
2. There are those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.
3. Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.
4. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.
5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of those mentioned above say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.
6. I am simply asking anyone who thinks it was common, to provide examples to support that belief; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred.
seekeroftruth
Well-Known Member
I don't see the issue here.... Back in the day.... using the correct dialect.... three days and three nights would work if it were only part of the third.... things were different then....
Take for instance all the arguments Jesus had with the Pharisees.... the Pharisees were protecting what they had always been taught.... God was going to send a warrior... a king.... and Jesus didn't fit their criteria.... they were doing the right thing... but it was wrong.... they couldn't see it as clearly as we can today...
Take for instance all the arguments Jesus had with the Pharisees.... the Pharisees were protecting what they had always been taught.... God was going to send a warrior... a king.... and Jesus didn't fit their criteria.... they were doing the right thing... but it was wrong.... they couldn't see it as clearly as we can today...
seekeroftruth,
re: "I don't see the issue here.... Back in the day.... using the correct dialect.... three days and three nights would work if it were only part of the third.... "
How do you know that? Do you have examples that show that it was common to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred?
re: "I don't see the issue here.... Back in the day.... using the correct dialect.... three days and three nights would work if it were only part of the third.... "
How do you know that? Do you have examples that show that it was common to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred?
seekeroftruth
Well-Known Member
It's called faith.... if the Bible says it's true.... then it is.... it's called faith....
Put your "now we got 'em" verse in context. Jesus was talking to the Pharisees. The Pharisees wanted to see some kind of sign. If Jesus did a miracle, they would accuse Him of using magic. If He didn't perform for them, they would call him a fake. So Jesus opted to use it as a teaching moment.
Here's what I found on these verses at blueletterbible.org.
Here's a link to an article on the subject.... hope it helps.... "Three Days and Three Nights"......
Please use your faith and put these "now we got 'em" rantings away.
Put your "now we got 'em" verse in context. Jesus was talking to the Pharisees. The Pharisees wanted to see some kind of sign. If Jesus did a miracle, they would accuse Him of using magic. If He didn't perform for them, they would call him a fake. So Jesus opted to use it as a teaching moment.
Matthew 12:38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”
39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.
43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.
”39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.
43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.
Here's what I found on these verses at blueletterbible.org.
Teacher, we want to see a sign from You: Their desire to see a sign really expressed another way in which they hoped to reject Him. If Jesus did provide a sign, they would find some way to speak against it, thus proving to themselves that Jesus was who they already thought He was - an emissary of Satan (Matthew 12:24).
b. An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign: Jesus condemned their seeking after a sign, especially when countless signs had already happened before their eyes. It is easy to overestimate the power of miraculous signs to change the heart of doubters and skeptics.
c. The sign of the prophet Jonah: Jesus assured them of a sign, but the great sign He would show was the sign of a resurrected Jesus. Jonah was a prophet in the sense beyond his preaching to Nineveh; also, his life was a prophecy of the death and resurrection of Jesus.
d. As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish: Jonah was indeed a picture of the work of Jesus. Jonah gave his life to appease the wrath of God coming upon others. But death did not hold him; after three days and nights of imprisonment, he was alive and free. This is a glorious picture of Jesus in an unexpected place.
i. "The apparent respect and earnestness of the request are feigned: 'teacher, we desire from you (emphatic position) to see a sign'. It reminds one of the mock homage of the soldiers at the Passion (Matthew 27:27-31)." (Bruce)
ii. "Had not Christ shown them signs enough? What were all the miracles he had wrought in their sight? They either speak this out of a further idle curiosity … or else they speak it in direct opposition." (Poole)
ii. "Had not Christ shown them signs enough? What were all the miracles he had wrought in their sight? They either speak this out of a further idle curiosity … or else they speak it in direct opposition." (Poole)
b. An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign: Jesus condemned their seeking after a sign, especially when countless signs had already happened before their eyes. It is easy to overestimate the power of miraculous signs to change the heart of doubters and skeptics.
c. The sign of the prophet Jonah: Jesus assured them of a sign, but the great sign He would show was the sign of a resurrected Jesus. Jonah was a prophet in the sense beyond his preaching to Nineveh; also, his life was a prophecy of the death and resurrection of Jesus.
d. As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish: Jonah was indeed a picture of the work of Jesus. Jonah gave his life to appease the wrath of God coming upon others. But death did not hold him; after three days and nights of imprisonment, he was alive and free. This is a glorious picture of Jesus in an unexpected place.
i. Because Jesus here refers to three days and three nights, some think that Jesus had to spend at least 72 hours in the grave. This upsets most chronologies of the death and resurrection of Jesus, and is unnecessary - because it doesn't take into account the use of ancient figures of speech. Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah (around the year A.D. 100; cited in Clarke and other sources) explained this way of speaking when he wrote: "A day and a night make a whole day, and a portion of a whole day is reckoned as a whole day." This demonstrates how in Jesus' day, the phrase three days and three nights did not necessarily mean a full 72-hour period, but a period including at least the portions of three days and three nights. There may be other good reasons for challenging the traditional chronology of Jesus' death and resurrection, but it is not necessary in order to fulfill the words of Jesus here.
ii. If Jesus rose from the dead on the first day or on the fifth day, we could say "Jesus was a liar and a false prophet. He said He would rise again on the third day, but He got it wrong." But Jesus didn't get it wrong. He never does.
iii. Yet we should not miss the central point here. "You are asking for a sign - I am God's sign. You have failed to recognize me. The Ninevites recognized God's warning in Jonah; the Queen of Sheba recognized God's wisdom in Solomon." (Barclay)
ii. If Jesus rose from the dead on the first day or on the fifth day, we could say "Jesus was a liar and a false prophet. He said He would rise again on the third day, but He got it wrong." But Jesus didn't get it wrong. He never does.
iii. Yet we should not miss the central point here. "You are asking for a sign - I am God's sign. You have failed to recognize me. The Ninevites recognized God's warning in Jonah; the Queen of Sheba recognized God's wisdom in Solomon." (Barclay)
Here's a link to an article on the subject.... hope it helps.... "Three Days and Three Nights"......
Please use your faith and put these "now we got 'em" rantings away.
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seekerof truth,
re: "It's called faith.... if the Bible says it's true.... then it is.... it's called faith...."
Where does the Bible say that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur?
re: "It's called faith.... if the Bible says it's true.... then it is.... it's called faith...."
Where does the Bible say that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur?
seekeroftruth
Well-Known Member
So that Pharisees would continue to test the faith of followers?
If someone will feed you, heal you, and give you hope.... why would you question them about the hour of the day unless you are trying to test your own faith?
They didn't have clocks..... they didn't punch time clocks or set alarms.... so doesn't it make sense that when they said midnight they would be talking about the about the middle of the period between dusk and dawn.... wouldn't noon be more like midday when the sun was "about" the middle of the sky?
God controls time.... He can make the earth stand still.
Look at the time Lazarus was in the grave..... At four days... he was stinky.....
John 11:38 Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39 “Take away the stone,” he said.
“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”
40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”
“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”
40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”
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seekeroftruth,
re: "So that Pharisees would continue to test the faith of followers?"
What's the question that causes your question?
re: "If someone will feed you, heal you, and give you hope.... why would you question them about the hour of the day..."
That's an issue for a different topic.
re: "...so doesn't it make sense that when they said midnight they would be talking about the about the middle of the period between dusk and dawn.... wouldn't noon be more like midday when the sun was "about" the middle of the sky?"
Yes. What is your point with regard to the topic?
re: "So that Pharisees would continue to test the faith of followers?"
What's the question that causes your question?
re: "If someone will feed you, heal you, and give you hope.... why would you question them about the hour of the day..."
That's an issue for a different topic.
re: "...so doesn't it make sense that when they said midnight they would be talking about the about the middle of the period between dusk and dawn.... wouldn't noon be more like midday when the sun was "about" the middle of the sky?"
Yes. What is your point with regard to the topic?
seekeroftruth
Well-Known Member
The question that causes my question is this..... Did you bring up this topic to cause an argument, making yourself look smarter than others like the Pharisees did when they questioned Jesus?
I think it's part of the question. I understand that what day we go to church may matter to some.... but most Christians have Jesus in our lives every single day now.... and we don't care what day or what hour He ascended. I figure I can ask Him when I get there.... would you like for me to ask Him for you too?
The whole topic was the which day do we consider the first day.... Did Jesus "die" on Wednesday or Thursday? Was it Saturday or Sunday when they found that empty tomb? Did Jesus stay for 72 hours or was it 70? That's what you're discussing.... right? I say it doesn't matter.... the fact is.... God has figured out how to pull off eternal life..... IMHO.....That's the big deal.... not what day do we go to church to be shot at.....
seekeroftruth,
re: "The question that causes my question is this..... Did you bring up this topic to cause an argument, making yourself look smarter than others like the Pharisees did when they questioned Jesus?"
No.
re: "I think it's part of the question. I understand that what day we go to church may matter to some...."
That has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.
re: "The whole topic was the which day do we consider the first day.... Did Jesus "die" on Wednesday or Thursday? Was it Saturday or Sunday when they found that empty tomb? Did Jesus stay for 72 hours or was it 70? That's what you're discussing.... right?"
No. Let me repeat:
1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth"
2. There are those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.
3. Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.
4. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.
5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of those mentioned above say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.
6. I am simply asking anyone who thinks it was common, to provide examples to support that belief; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred.
re: "The question that causes my question is this..... Did you bring up this topic to cause an argument, making yourself look smarter than others like the Pharisees did when they questioned Jesus?"
No.
re: "I think it's part of the question. I understand that what day we go to church may matter to some...."
That has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.
re: "The whole topic was the which day do we consider the first day.... Did Jesus "die" on Wednesday or Thursday? Was it Saturday or Sunday when they found that empty tomb? Did Jesus stay for 72 hours or was it 70? That's what you're discussing.... right?"
No. Let me repeat:
1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth"
2. There are those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.
3. Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.
4. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.
5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of those mentioned above say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.
6. I am simply asking anyone who thinks it was common, to provide examples to support that belief; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred.
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