Radiant1
Soul Probe
We see in the gospel you quoted as the OP that Jesus gave us form prayer. He also practiced repetitive prayer. The Psalms are also prayers that Jesus quoted. So please don't discount them.
Matthew 6:5-15 Prayer
- Thread starter hotcoffee
- Start date
We see in the gospel you quoted as the OP that Jesus gave us form prayer. He also practiced repetitive prayer. The Psalms are also prayers that Jesus quoted. So please don't discount them.
Zguy28
New Member
Father, give our sister peace and calm this day that only your grace and mercy can provide. Amen.
Zguy28
New Member
We see in the gospel you quoted as the OP that Jesus gave us form prayer. He also practiced repetitive prayer. The Psalms are also prayers that Jesus quoted. So please don't discount them.
I agree. Not all prayers of spontaneous. Some are given great care in preparing and there is nothing wrong with that.
One of my favorite pieces of devotional literature is the Valley of Vision. It is a collection of transcribed prayers of various Puritans.
Valley of Vision (Leather): A Collection of Puritan Prayers and Devotions: Arthur G. Bennett: 9780851518213: Amazon.com: Books
ItalianScallion
Harley Rider
You said that, I didn't. And the mysteries of Christ? :shrug: It consists of reciting Mary's name 50 times and you consider her divine...
Nothing wrong with repeated prayers................unless they're IDOLATROUS.We see in the gospel you quoted as the OP that Jesus gave us form prayer. He also practiced repetitive prayer. The Psalms are also prayers that Jesus quoted. So please don't discount them.
Radiant1
Soul Probe
Yes, the mysteries of Christ. We do not think Mary divine. You're lying again.
(I'll be generous and refrain from calling you a dog and swine.)ItalianScallion
Harley Rider
We ALL know better than that...Yes, the mysteries of Christ. We do not think Mary divine. You're lying again.
hotcoffee
New Member
Prayer
Matthew 6:5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9 “This, then, is how you should pray:“‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]but deliver us from the evil one.’
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
a.Matthew 6:13 The Greek for temptation can also mean testing.
b.Matthew 6:13 Or from evil; some late manuscripts one, / for yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen
We could stay on this one for a while. I don't think we will, but we could if we broke it down into the verses.
Babbling on like Pagans
I've heard I don't know how many thousands of people who stood in front for a service, a prayer meeting, a Sunday School class, a Bible study, and a multitude of other meetings.... who used all kinds of flowery speech, droning on and on and on... I've even said "Amen" out loud.... but that just made them go on even longer....
So what should you do when you get tapped to lead the prayer? I've declined. The pastor was very good about it. He just went on to ask someone else.
Our Father
Have we seen Jesus tell the people that we are all His children yet? I don't think so.
He's saying to us.... talk to God like you are talking to your Father.... Naturally...
The parts of prayer
Every now and then it's good to go back to the basics. This link will take you to a children's study page that does a great job of putting the Lord's prayer in basic language. It's only one page and very easy to understand.
Forgive others
Back to character again. Be good to others so they will have a chance to be good to you.
I'm sure there is a lot more that can be said about these few verses. Like I've said, I've heard I don't know how many sermons and taken I don't know how many studies on the matter.
Pray to Him... talk to Him... it's part of the relationship...
Just think prayer is so important that I should post this again....
The Rosary quotes Scripture! "Hail, Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and Blessed is the Fruit of Thy Womb, Jesus"!
Holy mackerel! You just reject anything Catholics out of hand. From the man who quotes Scripture and says Scripture is the be all-end all source of Truth. As soon as a Catholic does it there must be some heretical reason behind it.
You were soooooo poorly catechized it is unbelieveable! You know nothing of the Fullness of Truth.
ItalianScallion
Harley Rider
"Fullness of truth"??? YOU (y'all) always leave out the rest of the story:The Rosary quotes Scripture! "Hail, Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and Blessed is the Fruit of Thy Womb, Jesus"!
Holy mackerel! You just reject anything Catholics out of hand. From the man who quotes Scripture and says Scripture is the be all-end all source of Truth. As soon as a Catholic does it there must be some heretical reason behind it.
"...Holy Mary, MOTHER OF GOD", pray for us sinners..."
If that isn't idolatry, nothing is. Mary is dead, God has NO mother and we are commanded NOT to consult the dead.
Is Jesus God?? Is Mary the mother of Jesus?? Did Jesus obey all of the Commandments, including "Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother"??
Is He the God of the Living?? Can we pray for each other??
If you answer "No" to any of these questions, you are a heretic.
ItalianScallion
Harley Rider
Jesus is God
Mary was the mother of Jesus, not God. That prayer should have said that but it didn't. It is faulty, just like a few lines in the Apostles & Nicene Creeds
Jesus obeyed his parents, so?
Jesus said He's the God of the living. Mary is dead (physically)
Sure we can pray for each other but only the living and not the dead (spiritually or physically dead)...
Radiant1
Soul Probe
I think you have need to study...
Attachments
ItalianScallion
Harley Rider
So, then, God had a beginning? He was actually born @ 2,000 years ago? I think YOU have trouble separating the 2 natures of Jesus...
hotcoffee
New Member
I googled "define prayer" This is the first thing that popped up...
prayer /pre(ə)r/ Noun
1.A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship.
2.A religious service, esp. a regular one, at which people gather in order to pray together.
Synonyms
orison - request - entreaty - petition - plea
How sad we humans have become.... Why do we feel compelled to include the words "or an object of worship"? Are we so gunked up in the hearts that we can't stand up for where prayer really started and what it's true intent is?
I think this link to the Basics of Prayer defines it as I would define it to my Sunday School Class or my grandchildren....
For those of you who don't like following links.... Here's the best part...
"Prayer is personal communication with God – talking and listening to Him. He loves and cares for us. He wants to hear what we have to say. He is delighted when we pray"
And these are the elements of prayer according to the site
prayer /pre(ə)r/ Noun
1.A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship.
2.A religious service, esp. a regular one, at which people gather in order to pray together.
Synonyms
orison - request - entreaty - petition - plea
How sad we humans have become.... Why do we feel compelled to include the words "or an object of worship"? Are we so gunked up in the hearts that we can't stand up for where prayer really started and what it's true intent is?
I think this link to the Basics of Prayer defines it as I would define it to my Sunday School Class or my grandchildren....
For those of you who don't like following links.... Here's the best part...
"Prayer is personal communication with God – talking and listening to Him. He loves and cares for us. He wants to hear what we have to say. He is delighted when we pray"
- God commands us to pray (I Thessalonians 5: 17; Ephesians 6: 18) .
- Prayer glorifies God (John 14: 13).
- Prayer prepares our hearts to obey and walk with Jesus.
- Prayer benefits us.
- Prayer builds intimacy with God.
- God answers prayer (Acts 4: 23 –33; Matthew 9: 38).
- Prayer is both a privilege and a duty.
And these are the elements of prayer according to the site
- ADORATION - We express our adoration and praise to God, express wonder of His great majesty, His sovereignty and mighty power. We praise God for who He is and what He is like. We honor Him for the wonderful things He has done. In the Psalms are many excellent examples of praise and adoration.
- CONFESSION - What is confession? Confession means to agree with God about our sin. Confession involves repentance. I John 1: 9, Psalm 51
- THANKSGIVING - We express appreciation to God for what He has done for us. Our gratitude demonstrates faith. (I Thessalonians 5: 18, Psalm 107: 1, Psalm 103: 2)
- SUPPLICATION - Making requests. We pray for other people and their needs and for our own needs. (Matthew 6: 11 -13, Philippians 4: 6 -7)
Last edited:
ItalianScallion
Harley Rider
Good stuff HC. It's important, also, to "clear" our hearts & minds so we can pray. David said:"Prayer is personal communication with God – talking and listening to Him. He loves and cares for us. He wants to hear what we have to say. He is delighted when we pray"
- God commands us to pray (I Thessalonians 5: 17; Ephesians 6: 18) .
- Prayer glorifies God (John 14: 13).
- Prayer prepares our hearts to obey and walk with Jesus.
- Prayer benefits us.
- Prayer builds intimacy with God.
- God answers prayer (Acts 4: 23 –33; Matthew 9: 38).
- Prayer is both a privilege and a duty.
And these are the elements of prayer according to the site
- ADORATION - We express our adoration and praise to God, express wonder of His great majesty, His sovereignty and mighty power. We praise God for who He is and what He is like. We honor Him for the wonderful things He has done. In the Psalms are many excellent examples of praise and adoration.
- CONFESSION - What is confession? Confession means to agree with God about our sin. Confession involves repentance. I John 1: 9, Psalm 51
- THANKSGIVING - We express appreciation to God for what He has done for us. Our gratitude demonstrates faith. (I Thessalonians 5: 18, Psalm 107: 1, Psalm 103: 2)
- SUPPLICATION - Making requests. We pray for other people and their needs and for our own needs. (Matthew 6: 11 -13, Philippians 4: 6 -7)
18 "If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened; but God has surely listened and heard my voice in prayer. Praise be to God, who has not rejected my prayer or withheld his love from me!" (Psalm 66)
And Peter said:
"The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray." (1 Peter 4)
Radiant1
Soul Probe
No, God chose to be born in and around 1 AD, which does not imply that was His beginning. Jesus is one person with two natures that are not separate. To think otherwise is Nestorianism, which is an error that circulated in and around the early 5th c. (I'll be generous and refrain from calling you a heretic.)
Zguy28
New Member
You know, this could end well, or it could end badly. Regardless, the Protestant position is that Mary was the earthly vessel chosen to carry and give birth to the physical incarnation of the eternal Son of God. A unique position and blessing to be sure. In His incarnation Jesus undoubtedly showed her every honor and respect in fulfillment of the Law.
Why must you add to it?
This article comes pretty close to how I feel about it.
Examining the Roman Catholic view of Mary
Why must you add to it?
This article comes pretty close to how I feel about it.
Examining the Roman Catholic view of Mary
Radiant1
Soul Probe
As far as we're concerned there is no addition to the deposit of faith, Zguy. You are looking at all of the Marian doctrines through your scripture only lens. However, regarding Mary as Theotokos (Mother of God), why can't you just admit it? In what harm does it do you to use simple logic regarding the fact? I don't even see how that would take away from Protestant theology to do so, so it baffles me. The only conclusion I can come to is that to do so would not be in keeping with the underlying anti-Catholicism of the Protestant mindset. :shrug:
I skimmed the article, and there are some truths about the Catholic faith stated there and then a few misconceptions (no surprise). If I have a mind to when I have time I'll go over them with you if you wish. I did notice that the article does not address Theotokos at all, which is the foremost Marian doctrine, and it kind of makes me wonder why.
Btw, this already went bad when a certain non-Catholic had to pipe in and make erroneous statements about the Catholic faith (again) pretty much creating divisiveness and tearing asunder an ecumenical dialogue that was going quite well until then.
Zguy28
New Member
For what its worth, I have no issue with referring to Mary as the "God-bearer". And I suspect neither do most of my Reformed brethren.
Where I run into difficulty is indeed "Mother of God". I get what you say, trust me. I understand your reasoning, I don't agree though.
And I do view things through Scripture-only eyes, just as you do through Scripture+Tradition eyes.
I wouldn't necessarily have too much of an issue with "oral apostolic traditions" but that is not what I see coming from the Roman church. I see things, like the Assumption, which has no external evidence amongst the ante-nicene fathers, nor internal in the bible (it is a stretch to claim Revelation teaches it, let alone base dogma on an uncertain passage), being proclaimed under that banner and I reject it.
Anyway,the question we are asking you is:
Is Mary responsible in any maternal way for any of Jesus's divine attributes or divine nature? Did she beget the eternal Son?
If yes, then He must be a created being and you have joined the Jehovah's Witness's.
If no, then she is not the Mother of God, but rather the God-bearer, blessed and chosen vessel to deliver the incarnate Son.
Its a rather distinct difference in our eyes, as "mother of God" implies divinity, which you deny (as you should).
Then we get into all the stuff Starman is always talking about with "Queen of Heaven", "Mother of the church" (I get the whole second Eve analogy btw), and ever special "Co-Redemptrix". I think that last one is the one that particularly sticks in our crawl as it makes Mary somehow involved in the process of redemption. What happened to those redeemed through the gospel before she died (or was assumed as you claim)?
Last edited:
hotcoffee
New Member
Just for the record.... it really upsets me that a discussion of the Lord's Prayer can be turned into a debate about the divinity of Mary....
That to me is an issue....
That to me is not a good thing at all....
Just saying.... IMHO it's sad...
I don't understand the concept.... why would anyone pray to Mary when God is listening and wants to hear from you?
That to me is an issue....
That to me is not a good thing at all....
Just saying.... IMHO it's sad...
I don't understand the concept.... why would anyone pray to Mary when God is listening and wants to hear from you?