Matthew 6:5-15 Prayer

[Zguy28]

Just for the record.... it really upsets me that a discussion of the Lord's Prayer can be turned into a debate about the divinity of Mary....

That to me is an issue....

That to me is not a good thing at all....

Just saying.... IMHO it's sad...

I don't understand the concept.... why would anyone pray to Mary when God is listening and wants to hear from you?

Don't worry, Radiant1 and I aren't debating...yet. We're just having a discussion.

 

[Radiant1]

For what its worth, I have no issue with referring to Mary as the "God-bearer". And I suspect neither do most of my Reformed brethren.

Where I run into difficulty is indeed "Mother of God". I get what you say, trust me. I understand your reasoning, I don't agree though.

The question we are asking you is:
Is Mary responsible in any maternal way for any of Jesus's divine attributes or divine nature? Did she beget the eternal Son?

If yes, then He must be a created being and you have joined the Jehovah's Witness's.

If no, then she is not the Mother of God, but rather the God-bearer, blessed and chosen vessel to deliver the incarnate Son.

Its a rather distinct difference in our eyes, as "mother of God" implies divinity, which you deny (as you should).

Then we get into all the stuff Starman is always talking about with "Queen of Heaven", "Mother of the church" (I get the whole second Eve analogy btw), and ever special "Co-Redemptrix". I think that last one is the one that particularly sticks in our crawl as it makes Mary somehow involved in the process of redemption. What happened to those redeemed through the gospel before she died?

God Bearer or Mother of God is semantics, it means the same; either way she is the one who gave birth to God. Call her God Bearer if you prefer, it makes no difference to me.

I really don't want to get into the other Marian doctrines in this thread, except to say that Mary's role in salvation (co-redemptrix) is indirect and unequal and has nothing to do with her death but rather her fiat, nor is it dogma. We've been over it numerous times before in other threads and I'm content to leave it there. You can always bump those threads or start a new one if you really want to pursue it.

 

[Radiant1]

Just for the record.... it really upsets me that a discussion of the Lord's Prayer can be turned into a debate about the divinity of Mary....

Mary is not divine, so there really is no debate.

I don't understand the concept.... why would anyone pray to Mary when God is listening and wants to hear from you?

Why did you ask us to pray for you when God is listening and wants to hear from you? We ask Mary or any other person to intercede for us just like you do.

 

[cheezgrits]

It becomes a debate because someone like IS comes in with his virulent hatred towards all things Catholic and disrupts what was a very congenial and enjoyable thread by you and Radiant.

I was learning, pondering and thinking, now it's back to the same old crap on here.

Zguy has at least posted in a thoughtful, insightful manner, respectful of other's beliefs.

I think Radiant has made it abundantly clear what the beliefs are about Mary. No one seems to be listening or want to hear what shes says.

Sheesh. Chirstians. Glad I'm not one.

 

[ItalianScallion]

No, God chose to be born in and around 1 AD, which does not imply that was His beginning. Jesus is one person with two natures that are not separate.

Are you listening to yourself? "God chose to be born"??? So he had a beginning according to you. Jesus referred to God as BOTH His Father and His equal so he spoke from His 2 natures. The man Jesus was born; God was not born so save the heretic word for yourself.

Btw, this already went bad when a certain non-Catholic had to pipe in and make erroneous statements about the Catholic faith (again) pretty much creating divisiveness and tearing asunder an ecumenical dialogue that was going quite well until then.

This thread is about prayer and that's what I'm addressing. YOU brought up the issue of "babbling like pagans" and I decided to bring out another point about it.

YOU made this about me. Stick to the topic and get off of me! All you whiners immediately come after me. PROVE ME WRONG using the Bible! If you can't, then we'll just disagree but YOU'RE the one who goes after the person because you have nothing valid to counter with.

It becomes a debate because someone like IS comes in with his virulent hatred towards all things Catholic and disrupts what was a very congenial and enjoyable thread by you and Radiant.
I was learning, pondering and thinking, now it's back to the same old crap on here.
Zguy has at least posted in a thoughtful, insightful manner, respectful of other's beliefs.
Sheesh. Chirstians. Glad I'm not one.

Oh grow up will ya?! And be careful what you say about being a Christian. It will be held against you one day.

You are soo easily misled and you don't even know it, so don't put it on me!
You judge me and, yet, you have nothing but your feelings to back it up. You should read this stuff carefully and maybe you'd learn something here but honestly you haven't wanted to believe what we've said here much if at all.

This thread is about prayer and I will not stand idly by while someone desecrates the truth with her evil doctrine. Sorry if that doesn't fit your Shangri-La concept but that's the reality of spiritual things...

 

[libby]

save the heretic word for yourself.

Hey! Don't give her the credit for calling you a heretic! That was me!

 

[libby]

Are you listening to yourself? "God chose to be born"??? So he had a beginning according to you. Jesus referred to God as BOTH His Father and His equal so he spoke from His 2 natures. The man Jesus was born; God was not born so save the heretic word for yourself.

This thread is about prayer and that's what I'm addressing. YOU brought up the issue of "babbling like pagans" and I decided to bring out another point about it.

YOU made this about me. Stick to the topic and get off of me! All you whiners immediately come after me. PROVE ME WRONG using the Bible! If you can't, then we'll just disagree but YOU'RE the one who goes after the person because you have nothing valid to counter with.

Oh grow up will ya?! And be careful what you say about being a Christian. It will be held against you one day.

You are soo easily misled and you don't even know it, so don't put it on me!
You judge me and, yet, you have nothing but your feelings to back it up. You should read this stuff carefully and maybe you'd learn something here but honestly you haven't wanted to believe what we've said here much if at all.

This thread is about prayer and I will not stand idly by while someone desecrates the truth with her evil doctrine. Sorry if that doesn't fit your Shangri-La concept but that's the reality of spiritual things...

Really? God chose to come into the world as a man, does that clear it up for you? Are you denying that He was born of the Virgin Mary? Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ, the person, not just His human nature. If you demand to separate out his Divinity to accomplish your disdain for Mary, then you have to separate out His humanity, too, which takes away from the Sacrifice.
If you want to bring it back to prayer...and I know this has to have been brought up somewhere else in all of these years, but clearly you conveniently ignore Revelations 4, "and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. "
Now, I presume that this is another one of the exceptions, but here we go anyway. Is this Biblical example of repetitive prayer "babbling"? Or, just our repetitive prayer, because we are Catholic?
Isn't babbling more about what is in your heart, and less about the words that come out of our mouths? If we repeated the Our Father 50 times, would we even be having this discussion?

 

[hotcoffee]

Mary is not divine, so there really is no debate.



Why did you ask us to pray for you when God is listening and wants to hear from you? We ask Mary or any other person to intercede for us just like you do.

Gotcha....

So you think Mary can hear you or see your text and she will pray for you too.

Still seems like a real waste to me.... while you are praying anyway... cause by then you are in prayer... why not direct it to God....

Generally when I ask people to pray for me... it's right before I get off and get quiet to pray for myself...

 

[libby]

Gotcha....

So you think Mary can hear you or see your text and she will pray for you too.

Still seems like a real waste to me.... while you are praying anyway... cause by then you are in prayer... why not direct it to God....

Generally when I ask people to pray for me... it's right before I get off and get quiet to pray for myself...

Yes, we believe the saints in Heaven can hear us. She is a part of the Body of Christ as all of us are, and she can pray for us.
Do you consider it a waste to ask people on earth to pray?
Who said we pray to her instead of God?

R1 tells you (collective) all the time, it's not either/or, it's and/both.

 

[hotcoffee]

Yes, we believe the saints in Heaven can hear us. She is a part of the Body of Christ as all of us are, and she can pray for us.
Do you consider it a waste to ask people on earth to pray?
Who said we pray to her instead of God?

R1 tells you (collective) all the time, it's not either/or, it's and/both.

I'm so happy this is cleared up in my mind. I really thought Catholics were praying to her instead.

It's good to understand. I'm so happy.... sincerely

 

[Zguy28]

I think we can put to bed the argument here regarding the hypostatic union. Jesus was fully God and fully human. Two complete natures united in one person.

To believe otherwise is indeed heresy of one sort or another, and I pretty sure Stallion does agree with this doctrine.

In case anybody wants some lite reading:

What Is the Hypostatic Union? - Desiring God

 

[Radiant1]

Are you listening to yourself? "God chose to be born"??? So he had a beginning according to you. Jesus referred to God as BOTH His Father and His equal so he spoke from His 2 natures. The man Jesus was born; God was not born so save the heretic word for yourself.

This thread is about prayer and that's what I'm addressing. YOU brought up the issue of "babbling like pagans" and I decided to bring out another point about it.

Please re-read posts #11, #17 and #36 with comprehension.

YOU made this about me. Stick to the topic and get off of me! All you whiners immediately come after me. PROVE ME WRONG using the Bible! If you can't, then we'll just disagree but YOU'RE the one who goes after the person because you have nothing valid to counter with.

Don't flatter yourself. I haven't even attempted to go after you, nor do I desire to waste my time in such a manner.

If you want to bring it back to prayer...and I know this has to have been brought up somewhere else in all of these years, but clearly you conveniently ignore Revelations 4, "and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. "
Now, I presume that this is another one of the exceptions, but here we go anyway. Is this Biblical example of repetitive prayer "babbling"? Or, just our repetitive prayer, because we are Catholic?

Not to mention Jesus Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane, Matthew 26:39-44. Repetitive prayer at it's finest.

I'm so happy this is cleared up in my mind. I really thought Catholics were praying to her instead.

It's good to understand. I'm so happy.... sincerely

And I'm glad you understand the truth of the matter (thank you libby). I think the angels are rejoicing.

 

[Radiant1]

To believe otherwise is indeed heresy of one sort or another, and I pretty sure Stallion does agree with this doctrine.

I thought so too, but after reading what he wrote in this thread I'm not so sure.

 

[ItalianScallion]

Really? God chose to come into the world as a man, does that clear it up for you? Are you denying that He was born of the Virgin Mary? Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ, the person, not just His human nature. If you demand to separate out his Divinity to accomplish your disdain for Mary, then you have to separate out His humanity, too, which takes away from the Sacrifice.

See why indoctrination is soooooo dangerous? The clear implication in the Hail Mary is that she is God's mother. Deny it and twist it all you want, it's clearly said. Jesus was always God. He took on (became) flesh for His earthly ministry. As Zguy said: "100% God, 100% human". GOD HAS NO MOTHER!

If you want to bring it back to prayer...and I know this has to have been brought up somewhere else in all of these years, but clearly you conveniently ignore Revelations 4, "and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. " Is this Biblical example of repetitive prayer "babbling"? Or, just our repetitive prayer, because we are Catholic?

Another Scripture twister. The 4 living creatures aren't praying, they're PRAISING. There is a difference. Soo easy yet soo hard for some...:shrug:

I'm so happy this is cleared up in my mind. I really thought Catholics were praying to her instead.
It's good to understand. I'm so happy.... sincerely

Don't let them fool you HC. Mary is a revered goddess. Ask them about all of the special masses, holydays, statues, prayers and other things that they idolize her with...

 

[libby]

See why indoctrination is soooooo dangerous? The clear implication in the Hail Mary is that she is God's mother. Deny it and twist it all you want, it's clearly said. Jesus was always God. He took on (became) flesh for His earthly ministry. As Zguy said: "100% God, 100% human". GOD HAS NO MOTHER!

Another Scripture twister. The 4 living creatures aren't praying, they're PRAISING. There is a difference. Soo easy yet soo hard for some...:shrug:

Don't let them fool you HC. Mary is a revered goddess. Ask them about all of the special masses, holydays, statues, prayers and other things that they idolize her with...

And the clear implication with your theology is that He is not fully human. Twist it all you want, but if He is not fully human....well, just fill in the blanks with all of the logical (not to mention eternal) consequences...
Pray/praise...you're just looking or something to be pissed about. Do you praise people for...oh, anything? Praise is not worship. Now, THAT is reserved only for God, but if you say you don't praise others I'll say you're full of bull again. Just as I don't believe your Bible is on the floor next to your toilet. Just like I don't believe that you've never "spoken to" a loved one who has passed away. Just like I don't believe you've never bowed your head onto your Bible after you've read the sacred passages.

 

[onel0126]

Another Scripture twister. The 4 living creatures aren't praying, they're PRAISING. There is a difference. Soo easy yet soo hard for some...:shrug:

 

[hotcoffee]

Don't let them fool you HC. Mary is a revered goddess. Ask them about all of the special masses, holydays, statues, prayers and other things that they idolize her with...

Ok... so now we're down to the real thing here...

I believe that Jesus Christ is sitting on the right hand of God the Father. I believe that He is interceeding for me. Whenever I call out He says "Father, she's one of your children."

Now I believe that if I ask you all to pray for me, then you pray to God and Jesus says "Your children are asking for this"

So now here's my question... This is for everyone... The Bible says that Jesus is going to come back for the "quick and the dead" in Christ. If Mary is part of the quick and the dead.... which I believe she is.... then she must be dead because she is not walking around today.... then how is her prayer going to work?

 

[onel0126]

Q: "How can we be assured that Mary and the saints in heaven can hear our prayers?”

A: Well, aside from the fact that the Magisterium has ruled on the issue and that Apostolic Tradition teaches it (both of which are sufficient to prove the matter), the Bible also teaches it.

In the book of Psalms, which was the hymn book for the Temple in Jerusalem, we sing to those in the heavenly court and exhort them:

“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Psalm 103:20-21, RSV, as below)

The fact that those in the heavenly court can hear our prayers is also indicated in the book of Revelation, where we read:

“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.” (Revelation 8:3-4)

Thus those saints who are angels have a role in presenting our prayers to God in an intercessory manner. (Angels are also saints, as indicated by the fact that the Bible applies the Hebrew word for saint/holy one — qaddiysh — to them, cf. Daniel 4:13, 23, 8:13. Thus we speak of St. Michael the Archangel, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, etc.).

Since the Ascension of Christ, when Jesus took the Old Testament saints from sheol to heaven, large numbers of humans saints have also been in heaven, and Revelation indicates they also present our prayers to God:

“And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Revelation 5:8).

The twenty-four elders represent the hierarchy of the people of God in heaven (just as the four living creatures represent the hierarchy of the angels of God in heaven), and here they are shown presenting our prayers to God under the symbol of incense (which is, in fact, what incense symbolizes in church, since it is a pleasing smell which rises upward).

One might object, saying, “But maybe those weren’t prayers to the saints but prayers to God!” This may well be true. However, a person who says this only digs the hole deeper for himself since this would mean that those in heaven are aware of prayers which weren’t even directed to them!

 

[hotcoffee]

Prayer

Matthew 6:5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:“‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]but deliver us from the evil one.’

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

a.Matthew 6:13 The Greek for temptation can also mean testing.
b.Matthew 6:13 Or from evil; some late manuscripts one, / for yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen


We could stay on this one for a while. I don't think we will, but we could if we broke it down into the verses.

Babbling on like Pagans

I've heard I don't know how many thousands of people who stood in front for a service, a prayer meeting, a Sunday School class, a Bible study, and a multitude of other meetings.... who used all kinds of flowery speech, droning on and on and on... I've even said "Amen" out loud.... but that just made them go on even longer....

So what should you do when you get tapped to lead the prayer? I've declined. The pastor was very good about it. He just went on to ask someone else.

Our Father

Have we seen Jesus tell the people that we are all His children yet? I don't think so.

He's saying to us.... talk to God like you are talking to your Father.... Naturally...

The parts of prayer

Every now and then it's good to go back to the basics. This link will take you to a children's study page that does a great job of putting the Lord's prayer in basic language. It's only one page and very easy to understand.

Forgive others

Back to character again. Be good to others so they will have a chance to be good to you.

I'm sure there is a lot more that can be said about these few verses. Like I've said, I've heard I don't know how many sermons and taken I don't know how many studies on the matter.

Pray to Him... talk to Him... it's part of the relationship...

I just thought I'd like to bring this back to the top again.

 

[ItalianScallion]

And the clear implication with your theology is that He is not fully human...

:shrug: What part of 100% God & 100% human did you miss me saying?

Pray/praise...you're just looking or something to be pissed about. Do you praise people for...oh, anything? Praise is not worship. Now, THAT is reserved only for God, but if you say you don't praise others I'll say you're full of bull again. Just as I don't believe your Bible is on the floor next to your toilet. Just like I don't believe that you've never "spoken to" a loved one who has passed away. Just like I don't believe you've never bowed your head onto your Bible after you've read the sacred passages.

I praised you (in person) because you are a beautiful & classy lady who has done a great job raising all those kids and I admire you for that. I did not PRAY to you though did I?

Whether I speak to my deceased loved ones or not is irrelevant and in no way implies they hear me. And I do NOT kiss or bow down to my Bible. It sits on my desk for the nightly radio Bible study.

The Bible says that Jesus is going to come back for the "quick and the dead" in Christ. If Mary is part of the quick and the dead.... which I believe she is.... then she must be dead because she is not walking around today.... then how is her prayer going to work?

It doesn't work but someone will come up with some Magisterium Tradition of Confuscianism to make it sound like it does. Mary is physically dead but spiritually alive.

Q: "How can we be assured that Mary and the saints in heaven can hear our prayers?”
A: Well, aside from the fact that the Magisterium has ruled on the issue and that Apostolic Tradition teaches it (both of which are sufficient to prove the matter), the Bible also teaches it. In the book of Psalms, which was the hymn book for the Temple in Jerusalem, we sing to those in the heavenly court and exhort them:
“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Psalm 103:20-21, RSV, as below)

"Bless the Lord" does NOT mean pray to the dead. Onel, you're Scripture mis-understanding is atrocious and not even of this world. It's nothing but Catholic, Scripture twisting, indoctrinated and nowhere close to what that passage means. That's like saying: Elvis is still alive because my living room is white.

The Psalmist (David) is simply saying for all God's servants, hosts & ministers to bless the Lord for who He is and what He has done. NOTHING there indicates praying to the dead. God DID say this though:

10 "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord..." (Deuteronomy 18)

19 "When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God?" Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?"(Isaiah 8) [NIV1984]

The fact that those in the heavenly court can hear our prayers is also indicated in the book of Revelation, where we read:
“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.” (Revelation 8:3-4) Thus those saints who are angels have a role in presenting our prayers to God in an intercessory manner. (Angels are also saints, as indicated by the fact that the Bible applies the Hebrew word for saint/holy one — qaddiysh — to them, cf. Daniel 4:13, 23, 8:13. Thus we speak of St. Michael the Archangel, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, etc.).

Your conclusions are totally inept. Saints are NOT angels and vv. The angels may be able to hear our prayers (not sure of this though) but those prayers are not TO them or TO the dead saints. What have you allowed them to do to your poor misguided soul?

Since the Ascension of Christ, when Jesus took the Old Testament saints from sheol to heaven, large numbers of humans saints have also been in heaven, and Revelation indicates they also present our prayers to God:
“And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Revelation 5:8). The twenty-four elders represent the hierarchy of the people of God in heaven (just as the four living creatures represent the hierarchy of the angels of God in heaven), and here they are shown presenting our prayers to God under the symbol of incense (which is, in fact, what incense symbolizes in church, since it is a pleasing smell which rises upward).

THE SAINTS (on earth) WON'T BE PRAYING TO THE ELDERS OR THE ANGELS, they'll be praying to God when this happens. The angels (messengers) & elders held the golden bowls of incense which are symbolic of those prayers. NOTHING anywhere in the Bible indicates that the elders or angels heard those prayers. Does the incense that your people burn in church make audible sounds?

One might object, saying, “But maybe those weren’t prayers to the saints but prayers to God!” This may well be true. However, a person who says this only digs the hole deeper for himself since this would mean that those in heaven are aware of prayers which weren’t even directed to them!

This one will object. They aren't prayers TO the saints if you'd just read that passage correctly. They are prayers OF the saints who are alive on earth during the end times, praying to God.