No Christianity Isn’t Dying But It Is Under Attack

And many Christians argued against that position. All in perspective, as I have said.Neither of those things are true. Jesus condemned the act of single-sex sex, not the homosexuals themselves, while inspiring His disciples to seek human intervention in slavery. I don't find your interpretation odd at all. It fits the grossly inaccurate view you have of Christianity. But, nowhere does Jesus condemn homosexuals to Hell. And, Jesus specifically, explicitly condemns being brutal to our fellow human.Sadly, it wasn't only Christians or even religious people who began slavery, so that doesn't really seem to be much of a point at all. Add to that the main arguments against slavery were Christian and the point goes away altogether.

The fact remains that Jesus never explicitly condemns nor condones slavery. All opinions beyond that come from the perspective of the person who infers from the stories.

So, where this leaves us is Jesus did in fact tacitly condone slavery in the NT by not condemning it. But the tacit/explicit distinction is moot when the toll of human suffering exacted from nearly 2 Millennia of Christians' supporting the institution of slavery and becoming slave owners themselves is the net result.

Peter 2:18
Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

Furthermore, Paul, the author of Ephesians, never taught that slavery was evil and never directly demanded release of slaves.
Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

Slave holders of the South were on much firmer ground theologically than their neighbors to the north, and they knew it.

"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation..." -Jefferson Davis, President, Confederate States of America

There are many Christians today who freely and honestly admit that slavery was condoned and supported by the bible. I do not expect you to be among their number anytime soon. :boo:
 

cheezgrits

Thought pirate
:deadhorse

At some point this has to end.

Can you all agree to disagree?

Referring to the actual topic, it's arguments like this that will cause christianity to die. Moderate folks just don't have the time or endurance for arguments like this.

How about, Slavery is bad. Don't have slaves or support anyone who does.

Jesus said to love everyone.

The End.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
That you don't accept the law of the OT and the words and actions of Jesus as explicit proof doesn't mean its not. You are claiming Jesus changed that law. Show your work. Show any passage from Jesus that comes even close. I have shown plenty that show Jesus was just fine with the slavery that HE laid the law for in the OT.
You've shown nothing that shows Jesus was "just fine" with it. You've shown He acknowledged its existence.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
So, where this leaves us is Jesus did in fact tacitly condone slavery in the NT by not condemning it.
That's some pretty strong logic there...I could counter with "by not explicitly condoning slavery He condemned it" and it would have the exact same meaning.

But the tacit/explicit distinction is moot when the toll of human suffering exacted from nearly 2 Millennia of Christians' supporting the institution of slavery and becoming slave owners themselves is the net result.
Are you suggesting that had it not been for Christianity, slavery would have been wiped out pre-Jesus? Again, that's laughably intellectually dishonest, as slavery existed long before Christianity, and was started by the non-religious.

Peter 2:18
Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

Context! CONTEXT!

1 Peter 2 said:
12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority,
14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.
15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.
16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves.
17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.

Your quote shows that the lead-in to it is that you should be living as God's slaves, so when he addresses slaves he is talking to all God's people. He is telling you to live good, and bow to the authority of man because the authority of man matters not - just live good lives to honor God, regardless of your station. Your Ephesians quotes has the exact same meaning.

Perspective. Context. Intellectual honesty. Try them! They're really fun, and they give you a much better understanding!!
Furthermore, Paul, the author of Ephesians, never taught that slavery was evil and never directly demanded release of slaves.
I never said he did. :confused: Are you, like MR, asking me to defend a position I never took?
Slave holders of the South were on much firmer ground theologically than their neighbors to the north, and they knew it.
No, they mischaracterized passages without context or understanding, to fit their world view and help relieve them of their guilt for doing the wrong thing, just as you're helping to do now. You are bearing false witness with respect to the meaning of the scriptures. I pity you for that, and will continue to pray for you.
"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation..." -Jefferson Davis, President, Confederate States of America

Well, that settles it then :sarcasm:

There are many Christians today who freely and honestly admit that slavery was condoned and supported by the bible. I do not expect you to be among their number anytime soon. :boo:

Well, there are many problems with those who are under-educated or have poor understandings. One is that the slavery of biblical times was much more like indentured servitude than slavery of our southern states. Another is that Jesus gives mankind a lot more of a grown-up respect, and therefore a lot more responsibility to do the right thing. He set the moral guidelines, and there's still not a single time He condoned slavery, but He did tell us to love our neighbors as He loves us.

There were many Christians at the time who understood this, and they drove the arguments against slavery. If it's a numbers game you're looking for, the ones who were against it outnumbered the ones who were for it worldwide, and over time. But, Christianity is not a numbers game or a political game, so saying a lot of people are wrong is not an argument, nor is a quote from the political leaders of the time.

Which leaves us with the indisputable fact that Jesus never explicitly condoned nor condemned slavery, and every other point is an opinion which comes from inference of the passages - those inferences are driven by our particular dispositions and perspectives.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
:deadhorse

At some point this has to end.

Can you all agree to disagree?

Referring to the actual topic, it's arguments like this that will cause christianity to die. Moderate folks just don't have the time or endurance for arguments like this.

How about, Slavery is bad. Don't have slaves or support anyone who does.

Jesus said to love everyone.

The End.
Isn't that what I've said, repeatedly? :lol:
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
:deadhorse

At some point this has to end.

Can you all agree to disagree?

Referring to the actual topic, it's arguments like this that will cause christianity to die. Moderate folks just don't have the time or endurance for arguments like this.

How about, Slavery is bad. Don't have slaves or support anyone who does.

Jesus said to love everyone.

The End.

Based on PC not answering and MR posting his vitriol in another thread, I guess they finally took my agreement to disagree on our opinions!

:yay:

:buddies:
 

Salvador

One Nation Under God
What the pinnacle of irony looks like .

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