Northrop wins the KC-45A tanker contract

flomaster

J.F. A sus ordenes!
Be interesting what will happen after the next person takes office. It seems like a really bad time to negotiate these huge contracts right before a presidential election. God knows there are a few contracts floating out there these days that will sink like a tungsten balloon before/after the typical first 100 days!
 

Mateo

New Member
Be interesting what will happen after the next person takes office. It seems like a really bad time to negotiate these huge contracts right before a presidential election. God knows there are a few contracts floating out there these days that will sink like a tungsten balloon before/after the typical first 100 days!

What is interesting is that one of our companies , is developing a Jet engine with the Chinese. Now who do you suppose that technology will be used against in an opportune moment ?


Who needs spying when we give the stuff away ?????
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
I can understand the need to keep more than a couple of major aerospace operations in business, but I would like to see the DoD put a little more effort into steering things better. For example, with the JSF bid, Boeing lost to Lockheed, but Boeing should have never been in the competition to begin with. Boeing has never designed a successful fighter, and hadn't even built someone else's design since WWII. They are an airliner/bomber company, so it should come as no surprise that they would design a pretty crappy fighter plane. Northrup-Grumman has been in the fighter design business for decades, but where were they?

Next, we have the MMA contract to replace the P-3, and there is no way that the DoD can give the contract to Lockheed since they just won the JSF contract, so Boeing gets the award. The maritime patrol community spends a lot of time flying low and slow over the oceans, often at night, and propellers provide a much faster response to a sudden need for power than jet engines do. If a VP pilot messes up and gets too low at night, and tries to power out of the situation in that Boeing 767 the way he/she could in a prop aircraft, that plane is going into the water and killing the crew. It's been open knowledge for a long time that using jets to support the maritime patrol mission was inherently dangerous, and now we're placing our folks at risk because we need to spread the money around.

So now with Lockheed and Boeing satiated, we now have to feed money to Northrup-Grumman, which has always been a strike/fighter operation, and has no experience building something like an inflight tanker. So they have to go team up with EADS. Now we have to deal with the possibility of if we take military action that France disagrees with, France could mess up the logistics and sparing for the aircraft because they disagree with what the US is doing.
 
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High EGT

Gort! Klaatu barada nikto
Tax payers need to realize that the term "Tanker" for this weapon system is misleading. Yes its main mission will be to off load fuel but at the same time the demand of the aircraft will be to transport cargo and people and is the essence of Air Mobility Command (AMC). That essentially is why Airbus got the contract since Boeings entry (KC-767) paled to the overall capabilities of the EADS (KC-30). You can try and twist this issue a dozen differant ways but bassically as I said before the Air Force choose the KC-30 because they get more bang for the buck (bigger is better)
 

awpitt

Main Streeter
Boeing KC-767
Length - 159 ft
Wingspan - 156 ft
Max Takeoff wt - 400,000 lbs
Passengers - Up to 190
Cargo - Up to 19 Pallets
Patients - Up to 97
Boom Offload - 6,800 lbs

Airbus KC-30
Length - 192 ft
Wingspan - 197 ft
Max Takeoff wt - 513,000 lbs
Passengers - Up to 226
Cargo - Up to 32 Pallets
Patients - Up to 126
Boom Offload - 8,000 lbs
If bigger is better, Boeing could've put up a 777 or 787 airframe instead of using the 767.
 

FromTexas

This Space for Rent
If bigger is better, Boeing could've put up a 777 or 787 airframe instead of using the 767.

But they didn't bid that.

A few people are confused on the rules of how DoD contracts.

We set the parameters of how we will rate a company in advance after lengthy discussions between government engineers, contracting folks, finance folks, logistics guys, etc... till there is a set minimum set of parameters the contract must meet. Each set of parameters is given a different weight. The company that comes in scoring the best gets the contract. (a little oversimplified)

We have to live by these contracting rules because they have been spelled out in law to give the best value to the government. No one in DoD is sitting up on mount high saying, "Oh! We gave this one to Boeing so this better go to Grumman" or "Hmmmm, Boeing could have done better if they bid a larger aircraft - so lets bend the rules and give it to Boeing anyway"... etc...

They have to live up to the merits on what they decided to bid. We have to document everything and companies are experts at finding holes to appeal under - so avoiding even the appearance of impropriety is paramount in the awarding process. You do get a few outliers, like Darlene Druyun, who have too much control over the contracting process and go bad, but for the most part, the process is pretty protected - and supposed to prevent outside influence such a congresspeople who want things in their district.
 
But they didn't bid that.

A few people are confused on the rules of how DoD contracts.

We set the parameters of how we will rate a company in advance after lengthy discussions between government engineers, contracting folks, finance folks, logistics guys, etc... till there is a set minimum set of parameters the contract must meet. Each set of parameters is given a different weight. The company that comes in scoring the best gets the contract. (a little oversimplified)

We have to live by these contracting rules because they have been spelled out in law to give the best value to the government. No one in DoD is sitting up on mount high saying, "Oh! We gave this one to Boeing so this better go to Grumman" or "Hmmmm, Boeing could have done better if they bid a larger aircraft - so lets bend the rules and give it to Boeing anyway"... etc...

They have to live up to the merits on what they decided to bid. We have to document everything and companies are experts at finding holes to appeal under - so avoiding even the appearance of impropriety is paramount in the awarding process. You do get a few outliers, like Darlene Druyun, who have too much control over the contracting process and go bad, but for the most part, the process is pretty protected - and supposed to prevent outside influence such a congresspeople who want things in their district.

Basically right. Because of the way the contract awards are done, the "best" product for the task may not necessarily be awarded the contract.

A little pet peeve of mine.. it's Northrop Grumman. Thanx.
 
R

RadioPatrol

Guest
What is interesting is that one of our companies , is developing a Jet engine with the Chinese. Now who do you suppose that technology will be used against in an opportune moment ?


Who needs spying when we give the stuff away ?????



Well Hughes ? did that during the Klinton Administration ..... and was fined for Illegal transfer of Technology, in relation to a rocket that exploded while trying to launch a Sat.

You can bet that went to Improve Chinese Ballistic Missiles .............

I know the Gov. was looking closely at a company that builds Internet Routers and Firewalls and such, that was to be sold / partner with the Chinese - some was like : hey wait a min, how do we know the Chinese Gov won't implant some code in the firmware ..........


Lenin was right when he said, Capitalists will sell us the rope to hang them with .........


:whistle:
 

guess who

New Member
I can understand the need to keep more than a couple of major aerospace operations in business, but I would like to see the DoD put a little more effort into steering things better. For example, with the JSF bid, Boeing lost to Lockheed, but Boeing should have never been in the competition to begin with. Boeing has never designed a successful fighter, and hadn't even built someone else's design since WWII. They are an airliner/bomber company, so it should come as no surprise that they would design a pretty crappy fighter plane. Northrup-Grumman has been in the fighter design business for decades, but where were they?

Next, we have the MMA contract to replace the P-3, and there is no way that the DoD can give the contract to Lockheed since they just won the JSF contract, so Boeing gets the award. The maritime patrol community spends a lot of time flying low and slow over the oceans, often at night, and propellers provide a much faster response to a sudden need for power than jet engines do. If a VP pilot messes up and gets too low at night, and tries to power out of the situation in that Boeing 767 the way he/she could in a prop aircraft, that plane is going into the water and killing the crew. It's been open knowledge for a long time that using jets to support the maritime patrol mission was inherently dangerous, and now we're placing our folks at risk because we need to spread the money around.

So now with Lockheed and Boeing satiated, we now have to feed money to Northrup-Grumman, which has always been a strike/fighter operation, and has no experience building something like an inflight tanker. So they have to go team up with EADS. Now we have to deal with the possibility of if we take military action that France disagrees with, France could mess up the logistics and sparing for the aircraft because they disagree with what the US is doing.

As far as MMA/P-3, I've heard the same thing from several sources. IMO, Boeing shouldn't have won.
 

High EGT

Gort! Klaatu barada nikto
I can understand the need to keep more than a couple of major aerospace operations in business, but I would like to see the DoD put a little more effort into steering things better. For example, with the JSF bid, Boeing lost to Lockheed, but Boeing should have never been in the competition to begin with. Boeing has never designed a successful fighter, and hadn't even built someone else's design since WWII. They are an airliner/bomber company, so it should come as no surprise that they would design a pretty crappy fighter plane. Northrup-Grumman has been in the fighter design business for decades, but where were they?

Next, we have the MMA contract to replace the P-3, and there is no way that the DoD can give the contract to Lockheed since they just won the JSF contract, so Boeing gets the award. The maritime patrol community spends a lot of time flying low and slow over the oceans, often at night, and propellers provide a much faster response to a sudden need for power than jet engines do. If a VP pilot messes up and gets too low at night, and tries to power out of the situation in that Boeing 767 the way he/she could in a prop aircraft, that plane is going into the water and killing the crew. It's been open knowledge for a long time that using jets to support the maritime patrol mission was inherently dangerous, and now we're placing our folks at risk because we need to spread the money around.

So now with Lockheed and Boeing satiated, we now have to feed money to Northrup-Grumman, which has always been a strike/fighter operation, and has no experience building something like an inflight tanker. So they have to go team up with EADS. Now we have to deal with the possibility of if we take military action that France disagrees with, France could mess up the logistics and sparing for the aircraft because they disagree with what the US is doing.

So now with Lockheed and Boeing satiated, we now have to feed money to Northrup-Grumman, which has always been a strike/fighter operation, and has no experience building something like an inflight tanker.


That is exactly why Grunman got the contract because they built in their A330 a better airlift design. Again, air refueling is only part of the mission for the AC
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Oh come on...

We have to live by these contracting rules because they have been spelled out in law to give the best value to the government.

...Tex, by definition, a foreign nation winning a US military contract is always gonna stink to high heaven unless it's the Brits and even then...

EADS is in court right now, aren't they, over subsidies? Didn't DoD exclude EADS subsidies from the contract profiles???

I just don't like the idea of looking up and seeing an Airbus in our military.
 

nhboy

Ubi bene ibi patria
Update

Boeing to protest lost Air Force tanker deal

"In a move sure to fuel an already-heated debate in Congress, The Boeing Co. is taking the unusual step of protesting the Air Force's controversial decision to buy up to $40 billion worth of air-refueling tankers from a team that includes the parent of Airbus.

"Failing to protest this decision would have sent a message to Boeing's political backers that it thought its case was hopeless," said Loren Thompson, a noted defense analyst with the Lexington Institute, a think tank. "Besides, Boeing believes its tanker is better and should have won."

Boeing to protest lost Air Force tanker deal
 
R

RadioPatrol

Guest
I should put this in its own thread:

Plane wreck

By Frank J. Gaffney Jr.
March 11, 2008

The Pentagon has had a dirty little secret for years now: Foreign suppliers are an increasingly important part of the industrial base upon which the U.S. military relies for everything from key components of its weapon systems to the software that runs its logistics.

With the Air Force's Feb. 29 decision to turn over to a European-led consortium the manufacture and support of its tanker fleet — arguably one of the most important determinants of U.S. ability to project power around the world — the folly of this self-inflicted vulnerability may finally get the attention it deserves from Congress and the public.

The implications of such dependencies were made clear back in 1991 during Operation Desert Storm. In the course of that short but intense operation, American officials had to plead with the government of Japan to intervene with a Japanese manufacturer to obtain replacement parts for equipment then being used to expel Saddam Hussein's forces from Kuwait.

Gee if the Japanese were againist the 1st Gulf War ......... I will we survive the next conflict after Iraq .........

Plane wreck


Such a posture raises obvious questions about the availability of such equipment should the United States have to wage a war that is unpopular with the supplier's government or employees. Then there is the problem of built-in defects such as computer code "trap doors" that may not become obvious until the proverbial "balloon goes up" and disabling of U.S. military capabilities becomes a strategic priority to foreign adversaries, or those sympathetic with them.


This is my concern with so much computer crap manufactured in China

Reality mimics Fiction .... the start of Battlestar Galactica, Cylons slip in code that leaves the Colonies vulnerable to attack .... shuts down the defense fighters .... :whistle:


this is telling:

http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/modules/newsmanager/center publication pdfs/occ eads.pdf

• One of the owners of EADS, the government of France, has long engaged in: corporate other acts of espionage against the United States and its companies; bribery and other corrupt practices; and diplomatic actions generally at cross-purposes with America's national interests.

• The Russian state-owned Development Bank (Vneshtorgbank) is reportedly the largest non-European shareholder in EADS with at least a 5 percent stake. It is hard to imagine that, just when Vladimir Putin and his cronies are becoming ever more aggressive in their anti-Americanism and efforts to intimidate Europe, we could safely entrust such vital national security capabilities as the manufacture and long-term support of our tanker fleet to a company in which the Kremlin is involved.

• The enormous U.S. taxpayer-financed cash infusion into EADS will probably not only translate into more money for the slush funds the company has historically used to bribe customers into buying Airbus planes rather than Boeing's. It will also help subsidize the Europeans' space launch activities — again at the expense of American launch services.

• EADS has been at the forefront of European efforts to arm — over adamant U.S. objections — Communist China, Hugo Chavez's Venezuela and Iran.


:snacks:
 
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Larry Gude

Strung Out
We are so...

...so screwed up. Wouldn't it be nice to see some candidates for office, our elected leaders, making a big fuss about putting America first for a change and who also had a record of that, not just a campaign slogan of convenience?
 
R

RadioPatrol

Guest
...so screwed up. Wouldn't it be nice to see some candidates for office, our elected leaders, making a big fuss about putting America first for a change and who also had a record of that, not just a campaign slogan of convenience?

:confused:


are you poking fun @ me Larry ..............
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
No...

Oh ok ......... yeah America 1st lets bomb the crap outa anyone stands in our way ....

...that is a globalist position and does America no good.

Is it too much to ask that we build our own weapons and components? Is that too xenophobic? To nativist?
 
R

RadioPatrol

Guest
...that is a globalist position and does America no good.

Is it too much to ask that we build our own weapons and components? Is that too xenophobic? To nativist?



hehehe NO Not @ All ...........
 
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