Northrop wins the KC-45A tanker contract

[Larry Gude]

Let's see...

Try reading his post again. I understood it.

I wonder how much of the Airbus award was to ensure the bribery thing was a non issue?

Airbus got more money to ensure that the bribery thing was a non issue?

Now, as I read it, Airbus, who won the contract, would have no issues with anyone. Why would they get paid to not complain about something they can't keep from becoming public knowledge any way?

So, as I read it, as the way contracts usually work in graft, the winner takes part of the money and pays off those that helped them win.

Help me here.

 

[MMDad]

Airbus got more money to ensure that the bribery thing was a non issue?

Now, as I read it, Airbus, who won the contract, would have no issues with anyone. Why would they get paid to not complain about something they can't keep from becoming public knowledge any way?

So, as I read it, as the way contracts usually work in graft, the winner takes part of the money and pays off those that helped them win.

Help me here.

Boeing bribed an Air force official. They got caught. They fired a scapegoat. If they now win the contract, NG has a pretty good case to protest the award.

I believe Pete is saying that the Boeing bribery was a factor in the award going to NG.

 

[Pete]

Airbus got more money to ensure that the bribery thing was a non issue?

Now, as I read it, Airbus, who won the contract, would have no issues with anyone. Why would they get paid to not complain about something they can't keep from becoming public knowledge any way?

So, as I read it, as the way contracts usually work in graft, the winner takes part of the money and pays off those that helped them win.

Help me here.

Nearly every big government contract award is protested by the loser. It is almost automatic, almost always ties crap up for years and often ends up in court. If Boeing had won Airbus would have had serious grounds for appeal because of the bribery thing even though Boeing was cheaper because these contracts are hugely complex and cover thousands of different specs and angles.

By giving it to Airbus they made the old bribery case moot.

 

[Larry Gude]

Because...

Nearly every big government contract award is protested by the loser. It is almost automatic, almost always ties crap up for years and often ends up in court. If Boeing had won Airbus would have had serious grounds for appeal because of the bribery thing even though Boeing was cheaper because these contracts are hugely complex and cover thousands of different specs and angles.

By giving it to Airbus they made the old bribery case moot.

...bribery on Airbus's part hasn't been found yet? As I understand it, Boeing IS appealing anyway, right?

 

[Larry Gude]

So...

Boeing bribed an Air force official. They got caught. They fired a scapegoat. If they now win the contract, NG has a pretty good case to protest the award.

I believe Pete is saying that the Boeing bribery was a factor in the award going to NG.

...EADS bribed no one, yes? Or, hasn't got caught. I wonder if I could get my congressman to tell EADS "too bad, we've decided that Boeing gets the contract as long as every last nut and bolt is American made. Wanna bid on some pencils?"

 

[Pete]

...bribery on Airbus's part hasn't been found yet? As I understand it, Boeing IS appealing anyway, right?

More than likely they will appeal. They have some high power congressmen on their side now. If they work out some way to reverse the award then Airbus will appeal and it will be a quagmire for years.

 

[Kerad]

...EADS bribed no one, yes? Or, hasn't got caught. I wonder if I could get my congressman to tell EADS "too bad, we've decided that Boeing gets the contract as long as every last nut and bolt is American made. Wanna bid on some pencils?"

So you don't really care if the Air Force has to settle for an inferior plane. All you care about is that there's a "Made in USA" sticker on it?


(That sticker will have been made in China...)

 

[MMDad]

...EADS bribed no one, yes? Or, hasn't got caught. I wonder if I could get my congressman to tell EADS "too bad, we've decided that Boeing gets the contract as long as every last nut and bolt is American made. Wanna bid on some pencils?"

We should be talking about NG, since they won the contract. They are buying the airframe from EADS, assembling it in the U.S., and then selling it to the Air Force.

IF there were any evidence at all of bribery on the part of NG, you can bet that Boeing would be screaming it from the mountaintop. They aren't, so I'm fairly confident that there wasn't.

As far as Boeing protesting the award, they have lawyers on their payroll specifically for that purpose. They are paying the lawyers whether or not they protest awards. So they protest. If they lose the protest, they are out nothing. If they happen to win, their investment in a legal staff is justified.

 

[Larry Gude]

I want the...

So you don't really care if the Air Force has to settle for an inferior plane. All you care about is that there's a "Made in USA" sticker on it?


(That sticker will have been made in China...)

...sticker made here as well and I don't give a #### how many monks they kill.

 

[Larry Gude]

So...

We should be talking about NG, since they won the contract. They are buying the airframe from EADS, assembling it in the U.S., and then selling it to the Air Force.

IF there were any evidence at all of bribery on the part of NG, you can bet that Boeing would be screaming it from the mountaintop. They aren't, so I'm fairly confident that there wasn't.

As far as Boeing protesting the award, they have lawyers on their payroll specifically for that purpose. They are paying the lawyers whether or not they protest awards. So they protest. If they lose the protest, they are out nothing. If they happen to win, their investment in a legal staff is justified.

...a consortium that is part German, part French, part British and not a free standing going concern is devoid of corruption? Or, is it the epitome of corruption?

I want Northrop competing against Grumman and Boeing and McDonnell Douglas and Chance Voight. I want American companies paying American engineers and craftsmen and Americans pushing brooms and turning out the lights. I'm not interested in yet one more non American part being shipped over here on a non American boat to put more Americans out of a career.

 

[MMDad]

I want Northrop competing against Grumman and Boeing and McDonnell Douglas and Chance Voight. I want American companies paying American engineers and craftsmen and Americans pushing brooms and turning out the lights. I'm not interested in yet one more non American part being shipped over here on a non American boat to put more Americans out of a career.

Looks like you were born about 25 years too late. Those days are gone. Wish all you want to, but it isn't coming back.

 

[Larry Gude]

Pessimist...

Looks like you were born about 25 years too late. Those days are gone. Wish all you want to, but it isn't coming back.

...racist...


Look, all of this, all of it, is politics and I have had my fill of 'national' interests that produce wonders for the economies of other nations. If the US government and the military produce solicitations that are favorable, then there can and will be a rebirth of US companies IN THIS country to serve our military and aerospace needs.

The self defeating quest to eliminate $400 toilet seats and hammers of the late 70's and into the 80's and the base re-allocations may have enforced efficiencies, but there is an associated cost in lost jobs and lost national interest.

We could cut medical costs in 1/2 tomorrow is we simply allowed all the qualified doctors of the world to come here and set up shop. We could cut air travel costs in 1/2 if we just let foreign companies do as they see fit. We could put US steel mills out of business in short order if we bought everything over seas.

Imagine how cheap government would be if we outsourced Senators and members of the House to the lowest bidder?

I get freaking nuts and bolts made in China. If something can be made on the other side of the world and shipped here CHEAPER than it can be made locally, something is seriously, seriously wrong.

We're going too far.

 

[Larry Gude]

I remember...

Looks like you were born about 25 years too late. Those days are gone. Wish all you want to, but it isn't coming back.

...when all those great names started dying off. I remember those names from history, reading about WWII, the innovations, the can do attitude, the determination.

It's time for an American re-emergence.

 

[Kerad]

Look, all of this, all of it, is politics and I have had my fill of 'national' interests that produce wonders for the economies of other nations....

Or Northrop Grumman/Airbus produced a superior plane for the money.

 

[itsbob]

...a noble sentiment, bob and also besides the point. Are Baretta's the best equipment for the job? Does it make any sense to you, at all, that the land of Sam Colt and John Browning is using Baretta's? Me neither. That's politics. And it's wrong.

I think we all know that plenty of components and parts are not all that good and far from the best, but they work.

The M4 has been beaten by numerous replacement entries and the shooters in the field would much prefer the 416 uppers, but, hey, more politics. M4's are good enough. I just can't believe a US manufacturer can't come up with a piston driven upper.

If the airbus is far superior and we run into...say...politics of a foreign nation interrupting parts and supplies, it may still be the best but it is useless if it is stuck on the ground.

USA, USA...

Beretta's were the best 9mm for the job.. and the need for 9mm can be blamed on females soldiers and limp wristed pilots. They didn't want the logistics of having a better round for combat troops and another lesser caliber for women and pilots to carry.. the answer? EVERYONE carries a 9MM.

At the time, the M4 was the best/cheapest (logistically, again, the reasoning) option.. and it goes all the way back to Vietnam... and in Vietnam it's shortcomings were found. Which is why you didn't see this weapon in the inventory at all between Vietnam and the early 90's. Now everyone thinks it's cool! It's not.. It was originally (this time around) intended as a port weapon on the M2 Bradley.. never to be taken out of the inside of a tank, but the infantrymen thought it was cool..

Again, like the M1.. if it's built under license, we'll have access to everything. Just like if we cut off relations with Saudi Arabia today, they could continue to build M1's at their factories.. continue to build their own spares.. Even if we don't build the fuselage, we'll have full access to the schematics, the blueprints, everything where we can build it or the spares ourselves.

 

[High EGT]

FYI on where its made

Boeing KC-767
U.S. 85%
Japan 9%
Italy 3%
U.K 1%

Airbuse KC-30
U.S. 58%
Germany 14.9%
France 13.1%
U.K 7.9%
Spain 6.1%

In either contract America still has the lions share so I would think this is a win win regardless of who won the contract. And from the scuttle bud where hearing Airbus is building a plant in Alabama to support the contract.

 

[itsbob]

...when all those great names started dying off. I remember those names from history, reading about WWII, the innovations, the can do attitude, the determination.

It's time for an American re-emergence.

I agree with that sentiment..

But right now we don't build the best, nor do we have the greatest research and development.. We aren't the technology leaders anymore.
Now we have welfare, and foodstamps and entire generations that don't have to work, or work hard.. don't have to do anything better than anyone else. THere is no determination, no willingness to put in the time or sweat to be the best.

 

[Larry Gude]

You...

Or Northrop Grumman/Airbus produced a superior plane for the money.

...can be happy all you want about an European governmental consortium building our military equipment. I am not.

 

[Larry Gude]

And we...

I agree with that sentiment..

But right now we don't build the best, nor do we have the greatest research and development.. We aren't the technology leaders anymore.

...gotta start somewhere. Looks like a good place and time to me.

 

[Larry Gude]

Right...

Beretta's were the best 9mm for the job.. and the need for 9mm can be blamed on females soldiers and limp wristed pilots. They didn't want the logistics of having a better round for combat troops and another lesser caliber for women and pilots to carry.. the answer? EVERYONE carries a 9MM.

At the time, the M4 was the best/cheapest (logistically, again, the reasoning) option.. and it goes all the way back to Vietnam... and in Vietnam it's shortcomings were found. Which is why you didn't see this weapon in the inventory at all between Vietnam and the early 90's. Now everyone thinks it's cool! It's not.. It was originally (this time around) intended as a port weapon on the M2 Bradley.. never to be taken out of the inside of a tank, but the infantrymen thought it was cool..

Again, like the M1.. if it's built under license, we'll have access to everything. Just like if we cut off relations with Saudi Arabia today, they could continue to build M1's at their factories.. continue to build their own spares.. Even if we don't build the fuselage, we'll have full access to the schematics, the blueprints, everything where we can build it or the spares ourselves.

...and all of that is another way of saying that politics dictated the 9mm and politics dictated the M4 etc and so on. So, it is time for OUR politics to dictate solutions that are better for the US as a whole, as US politics should be.

The 416 is a great idea and the people who use them say they are superior.
Maybe it is time that matters.