Number of atheists & agnostics grows

[wxtornado]

I think the people who wrote the bible thousands of years ago were superstitious and believed in things like miracles and gods. It's akin to a child believing in Santa Claus. Santa Claus "explains" a lot when you're 3. Well, we're not 3 anymore. Collectively, humanity is growing up and we are understanding our environment with greater clarity.

And one of the things we are learning is that "santa" doesn't bring the presents. There's a different explanation as to where the presents magically come from. And here's the best part: With the scientific viewpoint, we get both the truth and the presents anyway!

I don't need a "faith" when I have a demonstrable, provable knowledge. The path that most benefits mankind is the one that leads to us growing up as a collective species. Like a baby cannot help but grow up and become more understanding about the world in which it lives, we as a species are growing up and learning more about the world we inhabit.

We are learning that there is no Santa Claus.

I do not argue that religious views were not helpful to mankind. We codified our ethics and morals from religious views, although it seems that religions all share some very telling attributes: they all define what happens after death, and they all leverage a threat of some kind in order to make people behave.

Okay, well, I don't accept the belief that we are stuck being mindless robotic sinners. I think that people have changed, even if we tend to think of the worst of us representing the most of us. I see humanity as a lot (billions) of quiet heroes and heroines, with a small (but powerful) percentage of people who are evil doers getting those headlines.

But collectively, we're decent and hardworking and we have the ability to truly understand our universe. We're learning that now - slowly but surely. And leaving our childhood fears of bogeymen, and Santas behind is inevitable. Atheism is inevitable, because in the end, a natural universe is where we live, and despite how hard we wish for an eternal existence under the protective wing of a loving parent, the truth is there is nothing of the kind, and the kind of place in which we live is our own repsonsbility.

 

[High EGT]

I think the people who wrote the bible thousands of years ago were superstitious and believed in things like miracles and gods. It's akin to a child believing in Santa Claus. Santa Claus "explains" a lot when you're 3. Well, we're not 3 anymore. Collectively, humanity is growing up and we are understanding our environment with greater clarity.

And one of the things we are learning is that "santa" doesn't bring the presents. There's a different explanation as to where the presents magically come from. And here's the best part: With the scientific viewpoint, we get both the truth and the presents anyway!

I don't need a "faith" when I have a demonstrable, provable knowledge. The path that most benefits mankind is the one that leads to us growing up as a collective species. Like a baby cannot help but grow up and become more understanding about the world in which it lives, we as a species are growing up and learning more about the world we inhabit.

We are learning that there is no Santa Claus.

I do not argue that religious views were not helpful to mankind. We codified our ethics and morals from religious views, although it seems that religions all share some very telling attributes: they all define what happens after death, and they all leverage a threat of some kind in order to make people behave.

Okay, well, I don't accept the belief that we are stuck being mindless robotic sinners. I think that people have changed, even if we tend to think of the worst of us representing the most of us. I see humanity as a lot (billions) of quiet heroes and heroines, with a small (but powerful) percentage of people who are evil doers getting those headlines.

But collectively, we're decent and hardworking and we have the ability to truly understand our universe. We're learning that now - slowly but surely. And leaving our childhood fears of bogeymen, and Santas behind is inevitable. Atheism is inevitable, because in the end, a natural universe is where we live, and despite how hard we wish for an eternal existence under the protective wing of a loving parent, the truth is there is nothing of the kind, and the kind of place in which we live is our own repsonsbility.

OMG were where you 10000 years ago that such mystical insight could have saved humans from all this foolish non sense about a higher power.

 

[This_person]

I don't need a "faith" when I have a demonstrable, provable knowledge.

Okay, PROVE where the dirt came from. PROVE where the universe came from. PROVE, irrefutably, mind you, how life came from the dirt.

You can't, you can only have faith that one day science can do this.

Santa Claus references and snide comments regarding mankind's past aside, you have no more proof than I do about your faith. Because, for every scientific report you can show of one theory, I can show another that debunks it, or at least puts it in huge question.

Own up to your faith. You're no different than the millions of religious zealots who shout what they KNOW as the "one and only" TRUTH if you can't own up to the reality of not knowing.

 

[PsyOps]

I don't need a "faith" when I have a demonstrable, provable knowledge.

Okay... we get that Santa Claus doesn't exist.

What "demonstrable, provable knowledge" proves how the universe got here?

Edit: Ooooops.. sorry TP, I didn't see that you already asked this, only in a much better way

 

[Xaquin44]

Okay, PROVE where the dirt came from. PROVE where the universe came from. PROVE, irrefutably, mind you, how life came from the dirt.

You can't, you can only have faith that one day science can do this.

Santa Claus references and snide comments regarding mankind's past aside, you have no more proof than I do about your faith. Because, for every scientific report you can show of one theory, I can show another that debunks it, or at least puts it in huge question.

Own up to your faith. You're no different than the millions of religious zealots who shout what they KNOW as the "one and only" TRUTH if you can't own up to the reality of not knowing.

I wonder, what the ratio of wars for science vs. wars for religion would be.

At least science looks for answers and doesn't just sit in self righteous complacency.

 

[PsyOps]

I wonder, what the ratio of wars for science vs. wars for religion would be.

At least science looks for answers and doesn't just sit in self righteous complacency.

Really? Have you paid much attention to Algore?

 

[This_person]

I wonder, what the ratio of wars for science vs. wars for religion would be.

I don't need to wonder, religion has been around for thousands of years, scientific zealots for a couple of hundred. Easy to figure out.

At least science looks for answers and doesn't just sit in self righteous complacency.

This is one of the fatal flaws - the assumption that religious people don't seek answers. Many, many scientists were atheists until they did the research, and determined the hand of God. Then, they kept looking. Virtually all of the great thinkers of the past have been religious people as well. There is no reason to think that science won't figure out the mechanisms God used to produce His so-called "magic". That won't stop it from being God's hand performing the miracles.

 

[tommyjones]

Okay... we get that Santa Claus doesn't exist.

What "demonstrable, provable knowledge" proves how the universe got here?

Edit: Ooooops.. sorry TP, I didn't see that you already asked this, only in a much better way

and how do we know that Santa doesn't exist eventhough we are indoctrinated with stories of his magical exploits and what some may even call miracles for a very early age?


While there may not be a provable theory about how the universe got here, we can prove in scientific terms that it is indeed here, and we can measure and predict things about it. Some of these measurable and demonstratable things contradict teachings of specific faiths.

 

[This_person]

and how do we know that Santa doesn't exist eventhough we are indoctrinated with stories of his magical exploits and what some may even call miracles for a very early age?

As adults, we know how Santa's present get there. I'm not sure what your point (or Tornado's) is with Santa.

While there may not be a provable theory about how the universe got here, we can prove in scientific terms that it is indeed here, and we can measure and predict things about it. Some of these measurable and demonstratable things contradict teachings of specific faiths.

And, how is this different from the vast majority of religions? Do you think religious people dispute the universe is here, or that there are predicatable factors to it? We can prove that life exists, and have measurable and demonstratable predictions about that. The question really is, where did it come from, and why are we here?

Science can answer neither of those things any more than religion can. It's all faith.

 

[tommyjones]

As adults, we know how Santa's present get there. I'm not sure what your point (or Tornado's) is with Santa.And, how is this different from the vast majority of religions? Do you think religious people dispute the universe is here, or that there are predicatable factors to it? We can prove that life exists, and have measurable and demonstratable predictions about that. The question really is, where did it come from, and why are we here?

Science can answer neither of those things any more than religion can. It's all faith.

but science can answer that a man didn't walk on water, turn water to wine, rise from the dead, etc.....

you want to punch a whole in the science story by saying they dont know the "entire" story so they are wrong. Science just logically shows the falaices in relgion.
just like we 'know' that santa couldn't really fly all the way around the world deliveriing presents to every child in one night, we 'know' many of the claims in the bible do not jive with what is reality

 

[This_person]

but science can answer that a man didn't walk on water, turn water to wine, rise from the dead, etc.....

you want to punch a whole in the science story by saying they dont know the "entire" story so they are wrong. Science just logically shows the falaices in relgion.
just like we 'know' that santa couldn't really fly all the way around the world deliveriing presents to every child in one night, we 'know' many of the claims in the bible do not jive with what is reality

Actually, they know they don't know how to do it yet, not it couldn't be done.

I'm not saying science is wrong. I'm not arrogant enough to say anyone is wrong. I'm saying that science can't prove what it claims, nor disprove what anyone else claims, any more than (virtually) any religion can prove or be disproven in it's claims.

My point isn't about who's right or wrong. My point is that no one knows any more than anyone else, and claiming you do know is close-minded zealotry to your faith against all other options - whether that's faith in God, the spaghetti thing, or science

 

[tommyjones]

Actually, they know they don't know how to do it yet, not it couldn't be done.

so we can "know" that santa cant magically make reindeer fly, but we dont "know" that a person cannot rise from the dead?

 

[This_person]

so we can "know" that santa cant magically make reindeer fly, but we dont "know" that a person cannot rise from the dead?

That's right, we know that someone who doesn't actually exist can't do things (kind of intuitively obvious), but we don't "know" that a person cannot rise from the dead. We don't "know" where the universe came from, we don't "know" how lifeless muck became life and changed to an almost immeasurable number of different life forms from that single cell.....

No one "knows".

 

[tommyjones]

That's right, we know that someone who doesn't actually exist can't do things (kind of intuitively obvious), but we don't "know" that a person cannot rise from the dead. We don't "know" where the universe came from, we don't "know" how lifeless muck became life and changed to an almost immeasurable number of different life forms from that single cell.....

No one "knows".

i think you are using a different science book than i am. In mine it says dead people stay dead people, water is turned to wine through the process of fermentaiton, and people can only walk on water when it is frozen.

as to the rest i agree, we dont know where the universe came from, but that doens't mean that some story that is full of logical and scientific impossibilities explains it.

 

[Warron]

I don't think that its as much about the number of atheists & agnostics growing as it is about the number of religious posers shrinking. Alot of peoples religious beliefs go about as far as saying yes when asked the question or checking a box on some form they are required to complete.

In the past there was tremendous social pressure to belong to the local religious sect. Now that this social pressure is going away, more and more people are tossing away claims of religious belief that were only made in order to fit in.

 

[This_person]

i think you are using a different science book than i am. In mine it says dead people stay dead people, water is turned to wine through the process of fermentaiton, and people can only walk on water when it is frozen.

So, your book trumps mine? That's good! Now you're sounding like the zealot who only knows one "truth", like you claim so many religious people to be.

In my science book, it is virtually impossible. In my book that speaks of miracles, it's impossible too - that's why they're referred to as miracles. The Intelligent Designer is capable of pretty much anything, and that's the point of those stories. So, our books seem to agree, actually.

as to the rest i agree, we dont know where the universe came from, but that doens't mean that some story that is full of logical and scientific impossibilities explains it.

Nor does it mean the Bible explains it for sure, either.

 

[jrt_ms1995]

OMG were where you 10000 years ago that such mystical insight could have saved humans from all this foolish non sense about a higher power.

10,000 years ago humans lacked the knowledge to understand rational explanations of the world, which is what the man said. So they created mythology to explain things, and some mythologies are still hanging on.

 

[Xaquin44]

This is one of the fatal flaws - the assumption that religious people don't seek answers. Many, many scientists were atheists until they did the research, and determined the hand of God. Then, they kept looking. Virtually all of the great thinkers of the past have been religious people as well. There is no reason to think that science won't figure out the mechanisms God used to produce His so-called "magic". That won't stop it from being God's hand performing the miracles.

they don't look for answers because they assume they already have it.

 

[itsbob]

I don't need to wonder, religion has been around for thousands of years, scientific zealots for a couple of hundred.

WRONG..

The man that discoverd fire, was not a religious man.. definitely NOT a Christian. By all terms he would be a "scientist".. the person that invented the wheel wasn't a priest or a pastor. The pyramids? You think religion built those, or engineers and scientists??

Science pre-dates religion, and christianity by at least a million of the six thousand years the earth has been around..

 

[PsyOps]

WRONG..

The man that discoverd fire, was not a religious man.. definitely NOT a Christian. By all terms he would be a "scientist".. the person that invented the wheel wasn't a priest or a pastor. The pyramids? You think religion built those, or engineers and scientists??

Science pre-dates religion, and christianity by at least a million of the six thousand years the earth has been around..

You really think it was "A" man that discovered fire? It was already an integral part of nature. Throughout history fire has often been viewed as a phenomenon from the God’s, a religious belief. The Pyramids were built for religious purposes.