Larry Gude
Strung Out
Not feeling an existential threat from my gummint isn't my idea of n'th degree.
Obama Supreme Dictator
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PsyOps
Pixelated
You must feel terrifyingly oppressed. For better or for worse, I'm not even close to packing my bags for some other nation. How do you even get up in the morning with all this oppression?
I'd suggest go do something with family, play some guitar, drink a beer, or 12, go for a drive, take a vacation, read a book, watch a movie, go see a show or a play or go to the range or...wait. Can you even do any of those things???
You are one difficult person to keep up with. You've spent a large portion of your time on here getting all
over things like the Patriot Act, TSA, NSA wiretapping, too many secrets, police brutality, etc... And now suddenly you have this very impressive trust in government.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
You are one difficult person to keep up with. You've spent a large portion of your time on here getting all
Call it evolution. Those things are, clearly, NOT going away as my alarm is not remotely matched by most everyone elses. Thus, they are not going away because the voters are not fearful of them. It's like coming to grips with what the GOP is; just keep observing behavior. At some point, it simply is what it does.
So, if that ain't changing, acceptance sets in and I'm left with trusting in my fellow citizens. Out of necessity.
PsyOps
Pixelated
Trusting your fellow citizens to do what?
Sounds a lot like the frog in a pot of water to me.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Fair point and compared to 30 years ago, it would feel hot and damn hot. That said, a LOT of people would feel MUCH free-er today than 30 years ago so, on the whole, we still ain't Stalin's land.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
To not treat me in a totalitarian manner.
PsyOps
Pixelated
This_person
Well-Known Member
No, but suggesting one feels so oppressed that they must move out of the country and has trouble waking up in the morning is.
This_person
Well-Known Member
Based on what? Given that Americans have imprisoned Americans for their ancestry, that Americans have sterilized Americans for not being desirable, that Americans have enslaved Americans, that Americans suggest ending the first amendment rights of other Americans with whom they disagree, that Americans have abandoned the fourth amendment in favor of "security" while other Americans who work for the government happily take that fourth amendment protection away....on what could you possibly base such trust?
PJay
Well-Known Member
Decided to put this here:
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box...jority-of-democrats-want-third-term-for-obama
That's messed up. Why even ask it...Obama doesn't need any ideas.
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box...jority-of-democrats-want-third-term-for-obama
That's messed up. Why even ask it...Obama doesn't need any ideas.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Far be it for me to ruin your fears. Enjoy.
That said, half our population feels FAR better about the nation and their fellow citizens these last 30-40 years than it seems you two do, having gained more control, not less, over their lives. Add in another 12% or so who have been struggling to be more free for over 160 years and seeing opportunity is real and not just talk and are certainly seeing it more so year by year and then add another 10% whose rights have improved the last 10-20 years who simply do not share your fears and concerns.
As a white, straight male, I guess I'm supposed to feel like you guys, like blacks and women and gays used to and still do, sometimes, feel; threatened. That someone is coming for me or holding me done or just wants me to know my place and that I best not make waves and I get that, I see, logically, if you used to be on top simply by being white and straight and having a dick, yeah, to us, it is a decline.
On the other hand, I live in a society where well over half the population is rising in their real freedoms and liberty and ability to pursue happiness as I always have. So, am I happy about be less dominant? In and of itself, sure. Is that assuaged or even a good thing that some of my freedoms are going to elevate others?
Yeah. It is.
This_person
Well-Known Member
How in the #### did you turn this into a racist, sexist thing?Far be it for me to ruin your fears. Enjoy.
That said, half our population feels FAR better about the nation and their fellow citizens these last 30-40 years than it seems you two do, having gained more control, not less, over their lives. Add in another 12% or so who have been struggling to be more free for over 160 years and seeing opportunity is real and not just talk and are certainly seeing it more so year by year and then add another 10% whose rights have improved the last 10-20 years who simply do not share your fears and concerns.
As a white, straight male, I guess I'm supposed to feel like you guys, like blacks and women and gays used to and still do, sometimes, feel; threatened. That someone is coming for me or holding me done or just wants me to know my place and that I best not make waves and I get that, I see, logically, if you used to be on top simply by being white and straight and having a dick, yeah, to us, it is a decline.
On the other hand, I live in a society where well over half the population is rising in their real freedoms and liberty and ability to pursue happiness as I always have. So, am I happy about be less dominant? In and of itself, sure. Is that assuaged or even a good thing that some of my freedoms are going to elevate others?
Yeah. It is.
The fourth amendment has nothing to do with race, sex, or anything beyond citizenship. The second amendment? Same thing.
I do not feel less dominant as a straight, white, male citizen. I feel more dominated by government as a citizen. You're throwing a new straw man into the argument when your last one failed, and this one fails, too.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
It's not clear in my mind if you don't understand this or don't want to understand this. Clearly, any reduction in rights, whether over in time or all at once, requires the consent of the governed and when you consider that a lot of the reductions of rights that are going do serve the purposes and address the fears of women and minorities then it becomes perfectly clear that the reason why these things happen is because, by and large, the consent of the governed is given.
The implication of that is that you and I are a minority and becoming smaller all the time therefore we are going to be more sensitive to it and look at more as a violation of our rights because it is in a reduction of our freedoms.. because it is and then you're stuck trying to see the bigger picture that the nation as a whole is doing better by the majority. That of course is small comfort when you're the one losing but when we were the ones winning we didn't see it that way. That doesn't make it fair or right but it does make it a lot more understandable and it does reveal that the greater good promoting the general welfare is happening.
The implication of that is that you and I are a minority and becoming smaller all the time therefore we are going to be more sensitive to it and look at more as a violation of our rights because it is in a reduction of our freedoms.. because it is and then you're stuck trying to see the bigger picture that the nation as a whole is doing better by the majority. That of course is small comfort when you're the one losing but when we were the ones winning we didn't see it that way. That doesn't make it fair or right but it does make it a lot more understandable and it does reveal that the greater good promoting the general welfare is happening.
This_person
Well-Known Member
So, tell me, how does the TSA improve the rights of women and minorities and LGBT while removing the dominance of the straight, white, male? If your logic is accurate, this should be an easy answer.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Simple. If you and I were the majority or, if women and other minorities thought like we do, these things would NOT be happening. There'd be FAR too much pressure against it. The simple fact of the matter is we, people who think like you and I, who have similar life experiences and understandings of how things work, are the minority. It has been a bit of a revelation for me coming to grips with this but, like most revelations, it's been quite liberating to at least understand and be able to make sense of it.
It's like the old maxim; if you sit down to a poker game and can't figure out who the sucker is, it's probably you.
Put another way, if you and Psy and I are looking around at one thing after another that assaults our sensibilities and don;'t make any sense and, as we understand it, can not be, then one of two things is going on; either their is a conspiracy and hidden enemies and the system has been hijacked or...
...we're the minority and what is going on IS what is wanted by the majority. Again, there is NO way much of this is going on when white, straight, Christian males were the majority, the vast majority.
And, again, this does not make it right nor fair. However, again, when we ruled, we didn't mind talking about more rights for women and minorities...just so long as it wasn't taking too much from us.
So, put another way, it's become our turn in the barrel. Which is another great maxim of life.
Now, what to do? Grant what is. The elevated status of women and minorities. Recognize that we're talking with at least our equals and, in many cases, our superiors, Respect them and that power. And, in my view, begin to organize. Not on race nor religion but on being the minority we've become; guys. We have rights, too. And approach them in a rational sense and not an emotional sense.
For instance, guns. We see the right for ALL to keep and bare. Well, women, and a lot of minorities, don't like that. They don't trust us with them and, frankly, maybe they don't trust themselves with them. So, fight for the right for guys to keep and bear arms. They don't have to join our gun pride parade. They don't have to wear camo or dip. But we want to have our rights and for them to respect them.
I know. I'm a ####ing genius.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
I didn't. It just is. The challenge is in seeing it for what it is.
Tilted
..
Are you suggesting that Fourth Amendment rights depend on citizenship status? <--- Real question, I'm not sure that's what you're suggesting but I think it is, so I'm asking so as to be clear.
This_person
Well-Known Member
Simple. If you and I were the majority or, if women and other minorities thought like we do, these things would NOT be happening. There'd be FAR too much pressure against it. The simple fact of the matter is we, people who think like you and I, who have similar life experiences and understandings of how things work, are the minority. It has been a bit of a revelation for me coming to grips with this but, like most revelations, it's been quite liberating to at least understand and be able to make sense of it.
It's like the old maxim; if you sit down to a poker game and can't figure out who the sucker is, it's probably you.
Put another way, if you and Psy and I are looking around at one thing after another that assaults our sensibilities and don;'t make any sense and, as we understand it, can not be, then one of two things is going on; either their is a conspiracy and hidden enemies and the system has been hijacked or...
...we're the minority and what is going on IS what is wanted by the majority. Again, there is NO way much of this is going on when white, straight, Christian males were the majority, the vast majority.
And, again, this does not make it right nor fair. However, again, when we ruled, we didn't mind talking about more rights for women and minorities...just so long as it wasn't taking too much from us.
So, put another way, it's become our turn in the barrel. Which is another great maxim of life.
Now, what to do? Grant what is. The elevated status of women and minorities. Recognize that we're talking with at least our equals and, in many cases, our superiors, Respect them and that power. And, in my view, begin to organize. Not on race nor religion but on being the minority we've become; guys. We have rights, too. And approach them in a rational sense and not an emotional sense.
For instance, guns. We see the right for ALL to keep and bare. Well, women, and a lot of minorities, don't like that. They don't trust us with them and, frankly, maybe they don't trust themselves with them. So, fight for the right for guys to keep and bear arms. They don't have to join our gun pride parade. They don't have to wear camo or dip. But we want to have our rights and for them to respect them.
I know. I'm a ####ing genius.
You reiterated that you think it is different, and why you think it should be seen as different, but you didn't answer the question which is how it is different for women/LGBT/minorities and straight, white (and now Christian) males.
According to the polls, the majority were against the ACA, yet it is law. Majority or not, minority or not, the problem we've been telling you about is that government has too much power over the people. Now, you can argue with some amount of validity that if we, the majority, want different we would vote someone else in. Well, we did that and nothing actually changed (they didn't do what they said they'd do).
So, where does that leave us? What do we do to achieve our goals? Well, whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Such has been the patient sufferance of white, straight, male, Christian - and women, and LGBT, and minorities, et al.
It would appear that we do not find the evils insufferable enough yet, because we still have hope that things can be made better within the process.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
No, it does not. If MOST people sincerely wanted the ACA gone, Obama would have lost in 2012 and everyone who voted for it would have, too. It would be gone. If most people never wanted it in the first place, it never would have happened. We can talk polls or we can talk votes. One matters. The other is subjective.