Open Letter to Spain..
- Thread starter Hessian
- Start date
Tonio
Asperger's Poster Child
I don't believe that humans can ever keep all their feelings out of their logical arguments. We're not Vulcans. Some people just do a better job than others of sticking to the facts. Others have an emotional agenda that clearly comes through and is distracting for people trying to follow their logical arguments. I'm just as guilty of anyone of letting my emotions overwhelm my logic at times.
>>Facts and logical thought sway my opinions. <<
It's hardly fact that the terrorist bombing caused a turn in the spanish election. If anything, this opinion is more an emotional response to not getting a desired result. Short of every voter coming out and saying they voted for the socialist party as a result of the bombing, any opinions you may read are only speculation.
A falure of the media and political analysts to accurately predict the outcome of an election is nothing new. Right here in the old USA, there was a big scandal about 4 years ago over an election being called before all the votes were cast. I could easily speculate that all the Spanish socialist voters just happen to be late comers to the polls. Especially considering the spanish peoples disagreement with the popular parties' handling of the Iraq war from the beginning.
And then we come to the old correlation versus causation statistical argument. Just because two events happen at the same time, does not mean that one causes the other. You need far more information then a bombing occuring just before an election to prove the bombing influenced the election. No statistical connection can be proven by correlation alone.
In the end, I agree that it is possible that the bombing influenced the election in spain, but there is far from enough evidence to say how probable it is. So if you want to speculate on such a connection, go ahead, but don't try to pass speculation on as fact.
It's hardly fact that the terrorist bombing caused a turn in the spanish election. If anything, this opinion is more an emotional response to not getting a desired result. Short of every voter coming out and saying they voted for the socialist party as a result of the bombing, any opinions you may read are only speculation.
A falure of the media and political analysts to accurately predict the outcome of an election is nothing new. Right here in the old USA, there was a big scandal about 4 years ago over an election being called before all the votes were cast. I could easily speculate that all the Spanish socialist voters just happen to be late comers to the polls. Especially considering the spanish peoples disagreement with the popular parties' handling of the Iraq war from the beginning.
And then we come to the old correlation versus causation statistical argument. Just because two events happen at the same time, does not mean that one causes the other. You need far more information then a bombing occuring just before an election to prove the bombing influenced the election. No statistical connection can be proven by correlation alone.
In the end, I agree that it is possible that the bombing influenced the election in spain, but there is far from enough evidence to say how probable it is. So if you want to speculate on such a connection, go ahead, but don't try to pass speculation on as fact.
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ylexot
Super Genius
At no time did I say that it was a fact that the terrorist bombing caused the turn in the Spanish election. However...
"Aznar's conservative Popular Party, which had led pre-election polls before the Madrid train bombings, fell from 183 seats to 148."
That would be a little something I call a FACT. That fact and some logical thought lead to the opinion that the terrorist bombing caused the turn in the Spanish election.
If you had read my post, you would see that I was commenting on how Supergrover was swayed by one editorial, but not the other despite the presentation of the same opinions. He was swayed by emotions because he thought one of the authors was "arrogant".
"Aznar's conservative Popular Party, which had led pre-election polls before the Madrid train bombings, fell from 183 seats to 148."
That would be a little something I call a FACT. That fact and some logical thought lead to the opinion that the terrorist bombing caused the turn in the Spanish election.
If you had read my post, you would see that I was commenting on how Supergrover was swayed by one editorial, but not the other despite the presentation of the same opinions. He was swayed by emotions because he thought one of the authors was "arrogant".
SuperGrover
jack of all trades
before you start attacking people... where in the arrogant article does it say anything like this?
"No lie. It would be one thing if the Socialists were leading in the polls before the attacks, and then won the election. But that's not what happened. The Socialists had been generating little more than apathy and no-shows at the polls..."
the point is that, the open letter to spain just makes us into the "ugly americans" europe portrays us as.
And that would be YOUR interpretation and opinion. I, however, think both articles are exactly the same in tone and content.
ceo_pte
New Member
No the open letter to Spain portrays them as the cowards that they are. Now they lose their freedom and get to live in fear, just like the people of Afghanistan and Iraq use to do. I am paraphrasing this, but it is a quote. "A man that is willing to give up his freedom or liberty in order to obtain more safety and security, deserves neither."
SuperGrover
jack of all trades
case in point
So you have a problem calling a coward a "coward". What should we call them instead?
ceo_pte
New Member
~ Truth is stranger than fiction ~
But don't ask you, right. I call them like I see it. I don't need the article to verify that the people of spain have given themselves over to socialism and would rather have their safety/security than their freedom. A people of courage will take a stand against terrorism, and will stand even when faced with the possibility of death. That's courage, anonymous with coward.
SuperGrover
jack of all trades
i can be persuaded if there's enough relevant information, but not if we just resort to name calling ("You were not afraid in 1937. Where is the courage of 1937?") or just arrogance ("That's the kind of people we are.").
again, in this debate, there's still alot of speculation on our part about the spaniards.
- maybe the reason the old gov't was ousted was because the people didn't believe that they were doing enough to combat terrorism?
regardless, i think there's enough to sway me into thinking that maybe, just maybe, the terrorist attack made some kind of impact on the elections.
again, in this debate, there's still alot of speculation on our part about the spaniards.
- maybe the reason the old gov't was ousted was because the people didn't believe that they were doing enough to combat terrorism?
regardless, i think there's enough to sway me into thinking that maybe, just maybe, the terrorist attack made some kind of impact on the elections.
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The US has made considerable changes towared safety and security since the terrorist bombing here. Do you consider us cowards as well?
>>>I don't need the article to verify that the people of spain have given themselves over to socialism . <<<
You know, I have been waiting for someone to say this. Spain has been socialist for years. The Socialist party is just the name of the political party. There version of socialism might be a little bit more extreme then the other political parties, but they are all socialist. The country didn't magically turn to socialist because of an election
No because we haven't thrown out our President in favor of someone who will appease the terrorists so they won't hurt us.
Yet.
ceo_pte
New Member
Having a socialist government(ran by conservatives) and giving over to the liberal side, b/c you are afraid that that the terroist are attacking you b/c you are trying to hunt them down is different. That's like someone slapping your mother (in front of you) and then you not doing anything about it.
I don't care if the dude/woman kicks my butt, we are still going to throw down. When we were attacked on September 11th, we went after the guys who did it. Spain gets attacked (not nearly as seriously) and they withdraw.
It's a little bit overstated saying spain with appease the terrorists simply because the socialists won the election. Its not like they had ever put any real support behind the Iraq war or any of our other efforts. The 1300 soldiers were nothing but pandering to begin with. And that against the will of the majority of the spainish people. This entire discussion seems to be more about our loosing support of another country then anything else. One more country providing nothing but cerimonial support isn't going to change anything one way or the other.
SurfaceTension
New Member
Purported Al Qaeda Letter Calls Truce in Spain
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...&u=/nm/20040317/wl_nm/security_spain_truce_dc