Petition going to Senators against amnesty

[itsbob]

Association. You post like him, you get associated.

I understand, anyone that doesn't share you view must be an idiot.

I used to feel the same way about illegals that you do, but after just a LITTLE bit of soul searching, trying to put myself in their shoes, and actually trying to process the costs, the numbers, and what they actually do, the hate faded. It's not in me to hate someone that is trying so hard to do well.

I respect them, and believe they deserve to be here moreso than a multitude of people that were born here.

They are people, just like you an me. They love their children, they have imense family ties and a feeling of responsibility to those that they bring into the world, and most of them are CHRISTIAN, and are trying to do right. THAT's what brings most of them here.

Legal or illegal, if I ever end up in a similar situation that most of them have been presented with, I hope I have the courage to do what they have done.

 

[itsbob]

Come on Bob, there are not that damn many cucumbers and heads of lettuce in America to pick. Do you go shopping and see the little signs above the cukes and peaches? "Product of Argentina" "Product of Costa Rica".

True the illegals do some unsavory work but most of it is day labor. Tyson will have to pay more to man the "gut room" and might make the cost of boneless skinless breasts go up some but I don't see a catastrophic failure of the entire US economy because Manuel is not going to be cleaning out the grease trap behind Dougsters Butt Emporium.

The point being, if their numbers are right.. 20 million grease trap emptiers would have to be replaced.. That's a lot of nasty filled up grease traps. I've done it, and you can't pay me enough to do it again.

If Manuel isn't there to do it, who are we going to have do it? At what cost?

 

[itsbob]

Post the data please.

I can post bull#### numbers just like you've been doing, but I would respect your intelligence that you would see they are just that.. bull####

 

[Sharon]

I can post bull#### numbers just like you've been doing, but I would respect your intelligence that you would see they are just that.. bull####

Cop-out.







It's your argument and you can't even back it up. But the insult was a nice touch.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I understand, anyone that doesn't share you view must be an idiot.

Did not say that nor do I believe that. You asked a question. I answered even though the question was directed at Sharon.

I used to feel the same way about illegals that you do, but after just a LITTLE bit of soul searching, trying to put myself in their shoes, and actually trying to process the costs, the numbers, and what they actually do, the hate faded. It's not in me to hate someone that is trying so hard to do well.

I respect them, and believe they deserve to be here moreso than a multitude of people that were born here.

I do not hate anyone. I have nothing against immigrants. I have one thing against illegal immigrants. They got here through illegal means. The Senate bill is a slap in the face of every person who came here legally. It is a slap in the face of every person going through the legal process of coming here. It sends the wrong signal. It says if you do something illegal we won't punish you, we will reward you by moving you to the front of the line in front of all those waiting to get in legally or already here legally.

They are people, just like you an me. They love their children, they have imense family ties and a feeling of responsibility to those that they bring into the world, and most of them are CHRISTIAN, and are trying to do right. THAT's what brings most of them here.

I have no doubt that many are Christian, probably more so than many U.S. citizens. I think they probably have a great sense of family. I don't dispute any of that. They are still here illegally. It is wrong. They did it the wrong way. They should not be here. They need to be deported.

Legal or illegal, if I ever end up in a similar situation that most of them have been presented with, I hope I have the courage to do what they have done.

Would I do anything I could to support my family? Yes ... as long as it was legal.

With the acceptance of doing something illegal to support your family, where do you stop? Is it OK to steal a loaf of bread? How about some hamburger? Steaks? A car? Kill a home owner and take possession of his house because your family needs it? Once you start accepting illegal as OK, where do you stop?

 

[2ndAmendment]

The point being, if their numbers are right.. 20 million grease trap emptiers would have to be replaced.. That's a lot of nasty filled up grease traps. I've done it, and you can't pay me enough to do it again.

If Manuel isn't there to do it, who are we going to have do it? At what cost?

Welfare recipients, welfare recipients, welfare recipients. What is so bad about making people getting a free ride now work for what they get.

"You are on welfare. Joe's Bar and Grill needs a day worker. Report to Joe Smoo at 9 AM and he'll put you to work. Then you can come by and get your check for the day."

 

[itsbob]

Did not say that nor do I believe that. You asked a question. I answered even though the question was directed at Sharon.
I do not hate anyone. I have nothing against immigrants. I have one thing against illegal immigrants. They got here through illegal means. The Senate bill is a slap in the face of every person who came here legally. It is a slap in the face of every person going through the legal process of coming here. It sends the wrong signal. It says if you do something illegal we won't punish you, we will reward you by moving you to the front of the line in front of all those waiting to get in legally or already here legally.
I have no doubt that many are Christian, probably more so than many U.S. citizens. I think they probably have a great sense of family. I don't dispute any of that. They are still here illegally. It is wrong. They did it the wrong way. They should not be here. They need to be deported.

Would I do anything I could to support my family? Yes ... as long as it was legal.

With the acceptance of doing something illegal to support your family, where do you stop? Is it OK to steal a loaf of bread? How about some hamburger? Steaks? A car? Kill a home owner and take possession of his house because your family needs it? Once you start accepting illegal as OK, where do you stop?

You stop where your morals tell you to stop, and you start when you tire of sending your kids to bed hungry. If I had to, I'd give my life to ensure my kids well being, that being said, I'd be willing to take a life to do the same. If I had to steal a car so they could eat next week, I'd chance going to jail to make sure they could eat. These people haven't killed anyone, they haven't stolen a car (at least at no worse percentage than those born here), all these people are guilty of is crossing an IMAGINARY line without getting permission first, and yet you believe they should stand by and wait, and possibly watch their children go hungry, they can't afford to feed their kids, you think they can afford an imigration attorney and the process to get the visas to cross legally? Yet we are the country who's foundation is freedom and democracy.. Mr Bush, Tear down this wall!! (Sound familiar?)

Yours and my kids have probably never had to go to bed hungry, as poor as I've been, my kids were always fed, and never went a day without food. I can't imagine what I'd be capable of if my kids had gone a week or ten days without food, what would you be capable of doing? I'd damn sure be capable of stealing a loaf of bread, or a hamburger... Would I be capable of leaving them to live and work in an unfriendly environment, I don't know, but apparently these people are brave enough to.

If the shoes on the other foot, and Mexico is the land of opportunity, and my kids are hungry.. guess what, I'd be in line to cross the border to help feed them. As a parent and a human it is instinct and is RIGHT to do what you have to do to provide and care for your family.. I could give a rats ass less about the politics.

 

[itsbob]

Welfare recipients, welfare recipients, welfare recipients. What is so bad about making people getting a free ride now work for what they get.

"You are on welfare. Joe's Bar and Grill needs a day worker. Report to Joe Smoo at 9 AM and he'll put you to work. Then you can come by and get your check for the day."

If it was POSSIBLE to do this, why aren't we doing it now? This is based totally in fantasy, not practical. You can't force people to work that don't want to work.. and it's been proven in the courts time and time again.

 

[itsbob]

Cop-out.







It's your argument and you can't even back it up. But the insult was a nice touch.

Other than giving me the link to an article, prove how much illegal immigrants cost us.. I'll give you a simple number to prove. Medical Care.. show me the HARD data, the truth about how much illegal immigrants cost the health care community yearly.



You can't, it's ALL estimates.. or supposition. I've filled out thousands of health forms in a number of states and not one asked if I was a legal or illegal, the only question I can remember is "Are you insured?" it wasn't "are you an insured legal or illegal immigrant??" So all the data you state, that you quote, are at best estimates, at worst just bogus numbers put out there to get the masses in an anti illegal immigrant frenzy..

I can do the same to support my argument, just make up numbers, but that would be more ignorant than believing the bogus numbers in the first place.

 

[itsbob]

Cop-out.







It's your argument and you can't even back it up. But the insult was a nice touch.

Calling you intelligent is an insult??

 

[BuddyLee]

I have to agree with Itsbob on this one.

You can't expect to move this many people and not expect consequences which are unbeknown at this point.

I see this as our mistake. We should have secured the border long ago and we should have enforced our laws long ago. Sometimes you have to pay the piper.

Give amnesty to those who have already been here for a certain amount of time and boot the newcomers. Secure the border and enforce our laws and i'll be all for deporting anyone who steps foot on U.S. soil.

 

[Pushrod]

I'd be willing to take a life to do the same. If I had to steal a car so they could eat next week, I'd chance going to jail to make sure they could eat.

So you would illegally take from others who are trying to support their loved ones so that yours can prosper!? You would actually take a life for this? You then have no morals and are evil and criminal, even without having committed a crime, yet.

I take it from your post in this thread that you would support a socialist/communist society over the Republic which we have now?
You sir, are despicable!

 

[itsbob]

So you would illegally take from others who are trying to support their loved ones so that yours can prosper!? You would actually take a life for this? You then have no morals and are evil and criminal, even without having committed a crime, yet.

I take it from your post in this thread that you would support a socialist/communist society over the Republic which we have now?
You sir, are despicable!

You sir are illiterate.

A comunist state wouldn't have open borders would it? You wouldn't have the freedom to come and go from neighboring countries would you? Free and democratic countries like ours; we have opportunities and choices we can make other than resorting to crime. In the US if you are a criminal, you chose to be one for no other reason then to be one. You don't have to steal to feed your kids in the USA. We don't have to illegally cross a border to find food or work. We are in one of the lucky countries, and many of us were lucky enough to be born here so as to never taste true hardship, and having to ever make the hard decsions.

My point above if I wasn't lucky being born an American, I would do anything to ensure the survival of my children. If you were put into a position like the refugees in Sudan/ Darfur, what lengths would you go to to protect and feed your children.

It's an almost impossible scenario to put people into, but in fact the scenario is alive and well in this world. We are lucky in this country we aren't forced (or shouldn't be forced) to make these kind of decisions, we have choices, we have options, and our kids will not starve to death.

Now, today, there are families in North Korea that actually have killed their children so they wouldn't have to watch them starve to death. Would that be your "Higher Morals" choice? Other N Koreans have chosen to break the law and face jail in China (not a very favorable choice) by illegally crossing their border to find food and work, and China sends them back (usually after a stint in jail) to N Korea to a certain death either at the hands of their government, Kim il Song, or by starvation. There are even reports of cannibalism in North Korea, I'm not sure I could take THAT step, that's even too far for me. Wow, China is JUST LIKE US, they treat their illegal immigrants the same way we want to.. what good company we're in.

Darfur how many children have starved to death, as gangs and militia steal the food that is supposed to be feeding them? You'd be opposed to standing up to these thieves to feed your kid? I'd either steal the food from them or die trying.

Somalia...

These are choices being made daily by moms and dads, and yet you stick your head in the sand and pretend everyones life in the world is as perfect as yours.

Put yourself in some of these scenarios and see how your high and mighty morals and finger pointing will help you.

 

[Pushrod]

Bob, What part about illegal don't you understand? They are not here legally, let them go through the proper channels or stay the hell out of our country!

Communism/Socialism has nothing to do with open/closed borders. It is about taking from those who have and giving it to those who have not, plane and simple!

And no, I would not stoop to killing someone to steal their bread to feed my family, I would find another way to do it, there is ALWAYS another way. The only way I would ever take a human life is in defence of myself, family, others or country!

And you are confused about the USA, it is a Constitutional Republic, not a Democracy. Remember, a Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what will be for dinner!

 

[itsbob]

Bob, What part about illegal don't you understand? They are not here legally, let them go through the proper channels or stay the hell out of our country!

Communism/Socialism has nothing to do with open/closed borders. It is about taking from those who have and giving it to those who have not, plane and simple!

And no, I would not stoop to killing someone to steal their bread to feed my family, I would find another way to do it, there is ALWAYS another way. The only way I would ever take a human life is in defence of myself, family, others or country!

And you are confused about the USA, it is a Constitutional Republic, not a Democracy. Remember, a Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what will be for dinner!

Like I said, you have to put yourself into a scenario where there is no other way.. people face these choices everyday, we are lucky we don't have to make these kind of choices, but some people do. There isn't ALWAYS another way. Crossing a border illegally seems like the lesser of many evils when it comes to these choices.

And I metnioned above, yep, they are here illegally, why? Do they have the option of the money to even TRY to do it the right way? How much time would it take to do if the right way, only to be denied?

Oh, and I didn't send you red, but thanks for signing yours, it's the first signed red I've gotten in awhile.

 

[Pushrod]

Like I said, you have to put yourself into a scenario where there is no other way.. people face these choices everyday, we are lucky we don't have to make these kind of choices, but some people do. There isn't ALWAYS another way. Crossing a border illegally seems like the lesser of many evils when it comes to these choices.

And I metnioned above, yep, they are here illegally, why? Do they have the option of the money to even TRY to do it the right way? How much time would it take to do if the right way, only to be denied?

Oh, and I didn't send you red, but thanks for signing yours, it's the first signed red I've gotten in awhile.

Oops Sorry for the misdirected red, I'll send you a green when it allows me to.

Back on topic, do you really know that it is THAT bad in Mexico, or are they coming here to increase their personal income levels over what they need to subsist? I think you are generalizing too much to say that they are illegally crossing into our country just to feed their families, I think most want the 'better' life that the USA can offer, TV's, cars, electronics etc... stuff they couldn't afford in their country. In my opinion, that is NO excuse to break the law and cross our borders!

 

[2ndAmendment]

If it was POSSIBLE to do this, why aren't we doing it now? This is based totally in fantasy, not practical. You can't force people to work that don't want to work.. and it's been proven in the courts time and time again.

Then quit giving them money; my money, your money. It is not the government's money. The government takes from those that will work to support themselves and their families and gives it to those that won't. I think it was Jamestown tried that the first year. The second year they said if you don't work, you don't eat because the system did not work. The welfare system is broken. One way to fix it is to say if you don't work, you don't eat. You say it is instinctive for parents to do what is necessary to feed their kids. Is it? Will welfare parents get off their duff to feed their kids? It would be interesting to observe.

 

[2ndAmendment]

You stop where your morals tell you to stop, and you start when you tire of sending your kids to bed hungry. I....

And obviously our morals are different. I do not believe breaking the law is right with the exception of man's law going against God's law. If man's law said I could not worship God, then I would break that law.

I would work, beg, and borrow to feed, shelter, and clothe my family, but I would not steal, cheat, or kill.

You say these people are too poor to go through the process. I say they are too impatient and self-centered to wait in line. As to whether they are criminals or not, they are. They have proved that they will break the law to get to their goal. They have crossed the line of illegality which makes crossing the line of law easier next time.

A sovereign nation cannot last if it does not have enforced borders. Are you willing to give up the United States as a country? Should we only have one nation on this side of the globe? We could call it America and it would include all of North and South America. Or we could have two; North American and South America and the border would be the Panama Canal. Of course we would have to change the name since it would now divide the two Americas. It could be called the Americas Canal. Which country would run it? Both?

Then we could have our standard of living completely diluted. We would be as poor as the current Mexicans invading the United States, so there would be no reason for them to migrate to the north. It would no longer be immigration since we would all be citizens of the same country.

How about making the U.N. the one government in the world? We could have one country and call it the World or Earth? Which language would we speak? IF we base it on population, I guess we all would speak Chinese. How far do you want to take this get rid of the imaginary line thing?

 

[2ndAmendment]

I have to agree with Itsbob on this one.

You can't expect to move this many people and not expect consequences which are unbeknown at this point.

I see this as our mistake. We should have secured the border long ago and we should have enforced our laws long ago. Sometimes you have to pay the piper.

Give amnesty to those who have already been here for a certain amount of time and boot the newcomers. Secure the border and enforce our laws and i'll be all for deporting anyone who steps foot on U.S. soil.

We already had amnesty granted under the Reagan administration in 1986 for temporary residence, http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1065553/posts , and said we would enforce the borders. It did not happen.

Either have borders or don't.

Quit collecting income tax and start collecting VAT; everyone pays according to what they spend. No sales of monetary instruments for transfer out of the country except to citizens and limit the amount. Want to ship money home to the family; OK, up to $5000, subject to the VAT. No more.

 

[Vince]

You say it is instinctive for parents to do what is necessary to feed their kids. Is it? Will welfare parents get off their duff to feed their kids? It would be interesting to observe.

I would like to see that also. I would bet about 50% would actually get off their azz and the rest wouldn't give a crap.