Petition going to Senators against amnesty

[sparkyaclown]

Oops Sorry for the misdirected red, I'll send you a green when it allows me to.

Back on topic, do you really know that it is THAT bad in Mexico, or are they coming here to increase their personal income levels over what they need to subsist? I think you are generalizing too much to say that they are illegally crossing into our country just to feed their families, I think most want the 'better' life that the USA can offer, TV's, cars, electronics etc... stuff they couldn't afford in their country. In my opinion, that is NO excuse to break the law and cross our borders!

You do realize allot of them come here, work a few years saving up what they can then go back so they can live the high life for a while. Rinse/Repeat

On another note though, they may work their asses off for this country as it was put earlier but they are basically stealing from the government for the entire stay here by not paying taxes and taking advantage of social, medical, and education opportunities. It may be a guess as to how much it's costing however the other side of the coin is that the government does know who is here legally and can budget accordingly. When those numbers are skewed, some of that can be attributed to a calculation error but I think you could make a fairly accurate guess on how much of that was caused by the illegals. There are people out there who would be willing to do the job. I mean realistically, while there has always been illegal immigrants here working under the radar, they have not always been in the numbers we are talking today. Somehow the work got done then and the country didn't fall apart.

 

[Makavide]

:On another note though, they may work their asses off for this country as it was put earlier but they are basically stealing from the government for the entire stay here by not paying taxes and taking advantage of social, medical, and education opportunities. It QUOTE]


But it is not just the illegal's who are stealing then from the government, so why just pucninsh them? Isn't it the responsibility of the employer to report how much he is paying all of his/her employees? Aren't the employers supposed to pay a portion of the Social Security tax as well for each employee? I mean, technically I have never "paid" an income tax in my life, my emplyer has always had it deducted from my pay and paid it for me. So who is really doing the stealing?

If we are going to prosecute the illegals, then we better prosecute all of the people who are breaking the laws with regards to this issue.

 

[itsbob]

And if we grant them amnesty, that will put them on the radar, they WILL be paying their fair share, they'll be paying in to SSI, be paying taxes etc.. Who cares how they got here, they are here, lets get it so they are paying their fair share, and can continue to the jobs that support our economy.

If not amnesty, than tear down the border, we have no need for it. Let them come and go as they please. Mexico is not an enemy, and shouldn't require a secure border (like East and West Germany, and North and South Korea). Not only would we save BILLIONs of dollars on enforcment of the border we'd save Billions on chasing down illegals that are really not a security threat to our country, and can put the resources on finding those that ARE a threat.

Most of the complaints the people that live on the border have has to do with the illegals going through their property, trash.. human waste etc that they leave behind. Open the border and they'll travel the roads and highways instead of sneaking through peoples yard and farms.. if you find someone sneaking through at that point you can bet they are up to more than just trying to get into the country, and should be dealt with accordingly.

 

[2ndAmendment]

But it is not just the illegal's who are stealing then from the government, so why just pucninsh them? Isn't it the responsibility of the employer to report how much he is paying all of his/her employees? Aren't the employers supposed to pay a portion of the Social Security tax as well for each employee? I mean, technically I have never "paid" an income tax in my life, my emplyer has always had it deducted from my pay and paid it for me. So who is really doing the stealing?

If we are going to prosecute the illegals, then we better prosecute all of the people who are breaking the laws with regards to this issue.

 

[sparkyaclown]

But it is not just the illegal's who are stealing then from the government, so why just pucninsh them? Isn't it the responsibility of the employer to report how much he is paying all of his/her employees? Aren't the employers supposed to pay a portion of the Social Security tax as well for each employee? I mean, technically I have never "paid" an income tax in my life, my emplyer has always had it deducted from my pay and paid it for me. So who is really doing the stealing?

If we are going to prosecute the illegals, then we better prosecute all of the people who are breaking the laws with regards to this issue.

Indeed, and you have just cited the issue they should be working on. That would solve two problems at once.

 

[2ndAmendment]

And if we grant them amnesty, that will put them on the radar, they WILL be paying their fair share, they'll be paying in to SSI, be paying taxes etc.. Who cares how they got here, they are here, lets get it so they are paying their fair share, and can continue to the jobs that support our economy.

If not amnesty, than tear down the border, we have no need for it. Let them come and go as they please. Mexico is not an enemy, and shouldn't require a secure border (like East and West Germany, and North and South Korea). Not only would we save BILLIONs of dollars on enforcment of the border we'd save Billions on chasing down illegals that are really not a security threat to our country, and can put the resources on finding those that ARE a threat.

Most of the complaints the people that live on the border have has to do with the illegals going through their property, trash.. human waste etc that they leave behind. Open the border and they'll travel the roads and highways instead of sneaking through peoples yard and farms.. if you find someone sneaking through at that point you can bet they are up to more than just trying to get into the country, and should be dealt with accordingly.

Germany was not our enemy ... until it was ... twice. Japan was not our enemy ... until it was. Mexico was our enemy ... it may be again.

Now lets do some supposition-al math. Let's suppose that only 0.1% of illegals are not just looking for a better way of life but are terrorists invading our country with the "benevolent" invaders. Let's take the low number of 12,000,000 total invaders. That yields 12,000 terrorists in our country waiting to strike. Is that acceptable? I don't think so.

istbob, if you like open borders, why don't you immigrate to the EU?

 

[2ndAmendment]

...
Most of the complaints the people that live on the border have has to do with the illegals going through their property, trash.. human waste etc that they leave behind. ....

No it is not. Most of the complaints I have seen are the fact that they are here illegally.

 

[Midnightrider]

Germany was not our enemy ... until it was ... twice. Japan was not our enemy ... until it was. Mexico was our enemy ... it may be again.

Now lets do some supposition-al math. Let's suppose that only 0.1% of illegals are not just looking for a better way of life but are terrorists invading our country with the "benevolent" invaders. Let's take the low number of 12,000,000 total invaders. That yields 12,000 terrorists in our country waiting to strike. Is that acceptable? I don't think so.

istbob, if you like open borders, why don't you immigrate to the EU?

the same reason you dont immigrate to a state with shall issue...

and he is saying, that we should grant amnesty and enforce the border, or just drop it.

 

[2ndAmendment]

the same reason you dont immigrate to a state with shall issue...

and he is saying, that we should grant amnesty and enforce the border, or just drop it.

And I'm saying we did that and it did not work in 1986. How many times are we going to do it?

So somewhere around 80% of the U.S. citizens do not want amnesty and want the illegals deported according to some figures I have seen. Now if we have a representative government, why are the people in Congress and Bush pushing this amnesty bill?

It is time to round them up, toss them out, and vigorously enforce our borders.

And I don't think it is the same reason. I stay in Maryland because Sharon does not want to move. I don't think itbob cares if Sharon doesn't want to move.

 

[itsbob]

Germany was not our enemy ... until it was ... twice. Japan was not our enemy ... until it was. Mexico was our enemy ... it may be again.

Now lets do some supposition-al math. Let's suppose that only 0.1% of illegals are not just looking for a better way of life but are terrorists invading our country with the "benevolent" invaders. Let's take the low number of 12,000,000 total invaders. That yields 12,000 terrorists in our country waiting to strike. Is that acceptable? I don't think so.

istbob, if you like open borders, why don't you immigrate to the EU?

The same reason you don't emigrate to Virginia!

Just because it isn't right now, doesn't mean we can't make it right..

And you think doing what would prevent these 12,000 terrorists from getting in this country? Correct me if I'm wrong, but ALL of the terrorists that have attacked us have gotten into the country LEGALLY!! They may have not been legal the day of the attack, but there original entry into this country was legal.

And we've had dormant cells in this country for at least 100 years.. The Germans had them, Russia probably still has them, and you can bet Al Quaeda has them..

 

[Sharon]

I stay in Maryland because Sharon does not want to move.

I changed my mind, let's go!

 

[2ndAmendment]

The same reason you don't emigrate to Virginia!
....

What? You care that Sharon doesn't want to move. I'm surprised. Does BadGirl know you have such regard for Sharon? I suspect our reasons are different.

For your consideration:

“Compromise is incessantly praised, and has produced the proposed immigration legislation. But compromise is the mother of complexity, which, regarding immigration, virtually guarantees—as the public understands—weak enforcement and noncompliance.” —George Will
“Entry into this country—either as an immigrant or a visitor—is a privilege, not a right. The safety of our citizens must come before the comfort and convenience of foreigners.” —Michelle Malkin
“Whose problem is the immigration bill in Congress supposed to solve? The country’s problem with dangerously porous borders? The illegal immigrants’ problem? Or politicians’ problems?” —Thomas Sowell

“The political class’ urge to capitulate on the integrity of the national border sends as important a message to the world about American will as their urge to capitulate on Iraq.” —Mark Steyn

 

[Midnightrider]

So somewhere around 80% of the U.S. citizens do not want amnesty and want the illegals deported according to some figures I have seen.

I got this image of 2ndA bending over and pulling a giant 80% sign from his ........

 

[itsbob]

0% of the American Poplulation could careless about illegal immigrants that are in this country doing their part. They feel the governemnt should be more concerned with welfare fraud

Look, I've seen these figures.. yours are waaaaay off.







See I can make up numbers just as well as anyone can.

 

[itsbob]

What? You care that Sharon doesn't want to move. I'm surprised. Does BadGirl know you have such regard for Sharon? I suspect our reasons are different.

For your consideration:

How does any of that answer the question of how securing our border will make us more secure, if in fact all the terrorists that have attacked us have entered LEGALLY!?

You really think with all of their resources that Al Queada would have to resort to sneaking into our country through Mexico, in the back of a beat up pick up truck??

 

[2ndAmendment]

How does any of that answer the question of how securing our border will make us more secure, if in fact all the terrorists that have attacked us have entered LEGALLY!?

You really think with all of their resources that Al Queada would have to resort to sneaking into our country through Mexico, in the back of a beat up pick up truck??

I would hope that if we secure our borders we would also be more diligent about who we let in legally.

 

[AndyMarquisLIVE]

I agree with Bob. When we debate this, we need to talk about changing the system.

The SYSTEM is the problem. Have you gone through the process to become a legal citizen of this country. I know people who have - it's long.

They need to change the immigration system first, then discuss what to do with illegal immigrants.

If all these people become legal, it will hurt the business sector because they will have to py minimum wage, benefits, etc. Businesses don't want to do that, and they'll just throw them on the streets and let welfare take care of them.

Deport the ones who aren't making a living, don't talk about amnesty 'til you do.

Bush and the Democrats don't get it.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I agree with Bob. When we debate this, we need to talk about changing the system.

The SYSTEM is the problem. Have you gone through the process to become a legal citizen of this country. I know people who have - it's long.
...

Good. You should really want to be a part of the U.S. and be willing to do what it takes. The Irish, Italians, English, Germans, French, and Japanese did. Why should the Mexicans be any different? Are they better than those groups of immigrants that did it the correct way and became part of the melding pot that the U.S. has been.

Hispanics tend to not want to give up their language. They tend to want the benefits but not become part of the greater group. They want to remain separate. That is why we have to push one or two to get service on the phone or at the bank and why we have to answer whether we want the ATM to give us English or Spanish. I haven't seen any ATMs with Japanese or Italian or other languages in the U.S. Why Spanish? Are the Spanish speaking peoples too lazy, too dumb, to learn English or is it they don't want to learn English? I think it is the last for most. They do not want to meld into the populace.

 

[Geek]

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breath free.
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

 

[hvp05]

I agree with 2A.

I think they should be rounded up and tossed out. Ideally speaking, of course. Since this is not feasible, because we can not catch all of them, we should catch as many as possible and offer citizenship and the right to stay if they are willing to earn their place.

2A mentioned the 'slippery slope' yesterday and sending the wrong signal. This is true, as we have seen evidenced at many pro-amnesty pro-illegal rallies. They violate our laws and then brag about it. Who's to say they will not think it okay to violate other laws? The thought that they could violate this one little, insignificant law but act as clean, upstanding folks thereafter is foolish.

Bob has mentioned "numbers" and wanting proof of how much illegals cost taxpayers. Honestly, I don't care how much the final amount is... if they cost us anything it's too much. Our health care and education resources are spread thin enough without non-citizens leeching from them.

Bob has also talked about a parent doing anything to protect their child[ren] and family. This may be a valid point... if the topic is a genocidal or tyrannical region or government. But Mexico is not such a place. They're poor and want something better, but they're not fleeing to save their heads... big difference.

Also, Bob has talked about the "hardship" and "courage" required to come here. (I know this was mentioned a few days ago in another thread.) I don't see the great challenge, not these days. Once they crossed, the tough part is over. Job opportunities abound, and countless Mexican communities are sprouting. My job employs a cleaning crew of Mexicans. I can't, of course, tell if they're illegal by looking at them, but I am frustrated when trying to communicate with one of them and their 5-word English vocabulary.

Between the availability and comfort of their communities and American apologists pleading their case, there is little to no need for them to assimilate... and that is one of my biggest concerns.