Pit bulls and your opinion

[Ken King]

But ken, the data you provided was in fact unreliable at best since none of the 3 "authorities" can agree on numbers. I agree and always have that a pit bull or any other powerful headstrong dog is NOT for everyone. What I disagree with is that they are any MORE dangerous than the others.

Unreliable, show me three different groups collecting data on the same subject that does agree. What you will find in the differing data is that in all three sources the pits/pit types do account for the greatest number of severe injuries and deaths. Why, because they are strong powerful animals and once in the attack mode they don't quit. For that reason I see them as more dangerous then other dogs, but not an absolute danger and thus they are not for your average owner.

 

[Solja_Boy]

What I disagree with is that they are any MORE dangerous than the others.

I would agree that pit is more dangerous than some other breeds of dogs. Simply based on size and strength. A pit could defiantly do more damage than a Dachshund could.

However I do not think a pit is any more prone to attack than any other breed of dog.

 

[Cowgirl]

I would agree that pit is more dangerous than some other breeds of dogs. Simply based on size and strength. I pit could defiantly do more damage than a Dotson could.

However I do not think a pit is any more prone to attack than any breed of dog.

What is a Dotson?

 

[LateApex]

What is a Dotson?

I'm pretty sure he meant:

Daschund also known as the weiner dog..

 

[Solja_Boy]

I'm pretty sure he meant:

Daschund also known as the weiner dog..?

Yea thats it

 

[SouthernMdRocks]

What is a Dotson?

It's a weiner dog...which by the way I still have scars from down my one forearm.

 

[Lacie Girl]

A few facts about Pit Bulls



A message from the experts:

"Dog bite statistics are not really statistics, and they do not give an accurate picture of dogs that bite.” American Veterinarian Association Task Force on Canine Aggression and Human-Canine Interactions

“Statements concerning pit bulls ‘chewing’ with their molars while holding with their canine teeth and other statements which have pit bulls biting differently or more powerfully than other breeds have been made by people very unfamiliar with how a dog’s jaw structure works. After 30 years as a canine aggression expert, schutzhund trial decoy, expert witness on dog bites for the Seattle and Tacoma police departments, I concur with the conclusions reached by Dr. Brady Barr working with the National Geographic Society’s bite study which showed the pit bull’s bite to be unremarkable when compared to other breeds.” Diane Jessup, international speaker on canine aggression

MYTH: Pit Bulls are inherently dangerous

If you think so, then consider the facts: In 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007 according to the American Temperament Test Society breed statistics, the "pit bull" (American pit bull terrier, American Staffordshire and Staffordshire bull) out performed the golden retriever, a breed noted for its gentle temperament.

MYTH: "It's all how you raise them!"

Some people assume - incorrectly - that a dog's temperament is primarily shaped by how it is raised. You have heard these people say "It's all how you raise them!"

This statement is not only inaccurate, it is unfair to the animal, which, in reality, is influenced primarily by its genetics. You cannot raise a border collie to be a champion fighting dog, and you cannot raise a cocker spaniel to work rough stock. A retriever won't win at the dog track, and a greyhound won't lead the blind. Environment can and does influence a dog's behavior in so much as certain traits can be encouraged or discouraged, but a genetically shy or aggressively unsound dog cannot be "fixed" no matter how much that high priced "behaviorist" tries to convince you that it can.

It is also incorrect to assume that because a dog can be quarrelsome with other dogs that he is "vicious" and will attack children. Many working breeds have antipathy towards other animals - coonhounds go mad at the sight of a raccoon, foxhounds will not hesitate to tear a dog-like fox to shreds, greyhounds and other sight hounds live to chase and maul rabbits and will eagerly kill cats. They are still used today to chase down and slaughter coyotes. Even the ever-friendly beagle will "murder" a rabbit, given the chance. And yet the greyhound, coon and foxhound and beagle are among the friendliest of breeds towards humans. And it is the same with the well bred pit bull.

MYTH: The pit bull was bred for dog fighting only.

Fact: The history of the pit bull far predates the time when bans on bull baiting caused blood sport fanciers to turn to fighting dog against dog. The very name "bull" or "bulldog" gives us the clue as to what the original purpose of this breed was.

Far back into history - too far for us to see - man had bred dogs for gripping large game like boar and bear. From these dogs developed the Butcher's Dog, or Bulldog. The bulldog was an animal from 35 to 80 pounds, long of leg, sturdy in body, athletic, with a strong head and muzzle. The pit bulls of today descend directly from these animals.

My challenge to you:

I currently own 3 APBT's and will never go back to another breed. My dogs have shown me undying loyalty and have only ever expressed their love for life.

All of my dogs are therapy dogs that I take to the local nursing homes to visit with the elderly and sick. It is funny that none of these people are scared of them because they are pit bulls. There is also nothing more rewarding then watching someone pat the side of their bed to invite one of my dogs to join them. Wacthing my dog gently climb into bed and lay down beside this stranger, they carefully give their new best friend the same loving kisses that they would give to me.

I challenge everyone who holds a fear for Pit Bulls, regardless of the reason, to meet at least one of my dogs and then look me in the eye and honestly tell me that you still feel the same about Pit Bulls.

PS The pit bull in the middle (white and red brindle) is currently in training as a Search & Rescue dog.

 

[toppick08]

A message from the experts:

"Dog bite statistics are not really statistics, and they do not give an accurate picture of dogs that bite.” American Veterinarian Association Task Force on Canine Aggression and Human-Canine Interactions

“Statements concerning pit bulls ‘chewing’ with their molars while holding with their canine teeth and other statements which have pit bulls biting differently or more powerfully than other breeds have been made by people very unfamiliar with how a dog’s jaw structure works. After 30 years as a canine aggression expert, schutzhund trial decoy, expert witness on dog bites for the Seattle and Tacoma police departments, I concur with the conclusions reached by Dr. Brady Barr working with the National Geographic Society’s bite study which showed the pit bull’s bite to be unremarkable when compared to other breeds.” Diane Jessup, international speaker on canine aggression

MYTH: Pit Bulls are inherently dangerous

If you think so, then consider the facts: In 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007 according to the American Temperament Test Society breed statistics, the "pit bull" (American pit bull terrier, American Staffordshire and Staffordshire bull) out performed the golden retriever, a breed noted for its gentle temperament.

MYTH: "It's all how you raise them!"

Some people assume - incorrectly - that a dog's temperament is primarily shaped by how it is raised. You have heard these people say "It's all how you raise them!"

This statement is not only inaccurate, it is unfair to the animal, which, in reality, is influenced primarily by its genetics. You cannot raise a border collie to be a champion fighting dog, and you cannot raise a cocker spaniel to work rough stock. A retriever won't win at the dog track, and a greyhound won't lead the blind. Environment can and does influence a dog's behavior in so much as certain traits can be encouraged or discouraged, but a genetically shy or aggressively unsound dog cannot be "fixed" no matter how much that high priced "behaviorist" tries to convince you that it can.

It is also incorrect to assume that because a dog can be quarrelsome with other dogs that he is "vicious" and will attack children. Many working breeds have antipathy towards other animals - coonhounds go mad at the sight of a raccoon, foxhounds will not hesitate to tear a dog-like fox to shreds, greyhounds and other sight hounds live to chase and maul rabbits and will eagerly kill cats. They are still used today to chase down and slaughter coyotes. Even the ever-friendly beagle will "murder" a rabbit, given the chance. And yet the greyhound, coon and foxhound and beagle are among the friendliest of breeds towards humans. And it is the same with the well bred pit bull.

MYTH: The pit bull was bred for dog fighting only.

Fact: The history of the pit bull far predates the time when bans on bull baiting caused blood sport fanciers to turn to fighting dog against dog. The very name "bull" or "bulldog" gives us the clue as to what the original purpose of this breed was.

Far back into history - too far for us to see - man had bred dogs for gripping large game like boar and bear. From these dogs developed the Butcher's Dog, or Bulldog. The bulldog was an animal from 35 to 80 pounds, long of leg, sturdy in body, athletic, with a strong head and muzzle. The pit bulls of today descend directly from these animals.

My challenge to you:

I currently own 3 APBT's and will never go back to another breed. My dogs have shown me undying loyalty and have only ever expressed their love for life.

All of my dogs are therapy dogs that I take to the local nursing homes to visit with the elderly and sick. It is funny that none of these people are scared of them because they are pit bulls. There is also nothing more rewarding then watching someone pat the side of their bed to invite one of my dogs to join them. Wacthing my dog gently climb into bed and lay down beside this stranger, they carefully give their new best friend the same loving kisses that they would give to me.

I challenge everyone who holds a fear for Pit Bulls, regardless of the reason, to meet at least one of my dogs and then look me in the eye and honestly tell me that you still feel the same about Pit Bulls.

PS The pit bull in the middle (white and red brindle) is currently in training as a Search & Rescue dog.

My old Chessie would maul your pits in a second....

 

[Lacie Girl]

Unreliable, show me three different groups collecting data on the same subject that does agree. What you will find in the differing data is that in all three sources the pits/pit types do account for the greatest number of severe injuries and deaths. Why, because they are strong powerful animals and once in the attack mode they don't quit. For that reason I see them as more dangerous then other dogs, but not an absolute danger and thus they are not for your average owner.

There is no accurate statistical data on dog bites. There is nothing in place to track dog bites in the US accurately. Many dog bites are never reported to authorities.

It must be understood that dog bite sta#tistics are nothing more than an estimate of incidents within a community. These reports in no way represent statistical data of bites for several reasons:

The reports will inevitably show popular large breed dogs as the problem. This is to be expected since large breeds can do more damage if they bite and due to popularity of certain breeds they have more individuals that could bite.

I have not seen a report that does any analysis by breed, of population verses bites. To have an accurate statistical representation this has to be part of the analysis. 10 attacks by a Doberman relative to a total population of 10 dogs implies a different risk than 10 attacks by a Labrador relative to a population of 1000 dogs. (A community approach to dog bite prevention, AVMA task force report)

Breed identification is often inaccurate with mixed breeds often identified as purebred. In many instances the identification is made by the victim or witnesses who are not trained in canine breeds or identification. Pit Bull identification is even less accurate than for other breeds like Dalmatians, Siberian Huskies, etc. For starters "Pit Bull" is not a breed. It’s a term used to group together a minimum of three different breeds of dog. In fact, there are 25+ breeds that look like a “pit bull” and are commonly identified incorrectly.

The true number of bites isn’t known as many dog bites are not reported.

The number of dogs by breed in any given area is unknown. Rarely are all dogs in an area properly licensed with the city/county. Therefore, there is no accurate way to determine statistics when all the factors are unknown or inaccurate. These reports don’t often consider multiple incidents by the same dog.

Many studies show that a Pits skeletal/musculature is no different then any other dog. Nor is their bite pressure disproportunate to their relative size.

Dr. Brady Barr of National Geographic (Dangerous Encounters: Bite Force, 8pm est 8/18/2005) – Dr. Barr measured bite forces of many different creatures. Domestic dogs were included in the test.

Here are the results of the dogs tested:

Domestic dogs: 320 LBS of pressure on avg. A German Shepard, American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) and Rottweiler were tested using a bite sleeve equipped with a specialized computer instrument. The APBT had the least amount of pressure of the 3 dogs tested.

In regards to a Pit being "in attack mode", this can, and is, true for any dog. My yellow lab can not be called off of an attack when he is provoked. For this reason I don't take my chances and ensure that he is muzzled when interacting with other dogs. However, one of my APBT's has a VERY high prey drive and is always chasing after my friend's chickens. I have no problem what-so-ever calling off of the chickens.

Finally, I DO AGREE that Pit Bulls are not for the average owner. Of course, I know some dog owners that shouldn't even own a fish let alone any type of dog. Pit Bulls are a working breed and just like any of the working breed types should be viewed and handled accordingly.

 

[Lacie Girl]

My old Chessie would maul your pits in a second....

As would many Chessie's that I have heard about.

 

[Ken King]

Lacie Girl,

I'll agree that there are no true statistics, no numerical comparison as to incidents versus population of a breed and that many dogs could be misidentified, hell the CDC quit tracking the issue in 1998. So all we have are the newspaper reports to obtain any form of data and I suspect that some attacks never make the news. But for what has been obtained it is compelling that certain types do more damage (the bigger and stronger dogs). And I'm not talking bites, I am talking severe maimings and killings.

All I have been saying is that those that own these type dogs must exercise greater control and that they aren't for everyone. And yes I agree that some dogs will never attack at all, but there seems to be some that do. And of that some many are "pits/pit-type".

What do you think of the US Supreme Court ruling concerning breed specific bans and the Ohio law that was ruled to be Constitutional?

 

[Baja28]

Lacie Girl,

I'll agree that there are no true statistics, no numerical comparison as to incidents versus population of a breed and that many dogs could be misidentified, hell the CDC quit tracking the issue in 1998. So all we have are the newspaper reports to obtain any form of data and I suspect that some attacks never make the news. But for what has been obtained it is compelling that certain types do more damage (the bigger and stronger dogs). And I'm not talking bites, I am talking severe maimings and killings.

All I have been saying is that those that own these type dogs must exercise greater control and that they aren't for everyone. And yes I agree that some dogs will never attack at all, but there seems to be some that do. And of that some most are "pits/pit-type".

What do you think of the US Supreme Court ruling concerning breed specific bans and the Ohio law that was ruled to be Constitutional?

I gave up on em Ken. They ignore all the available data, the news reports, the pictures I posted here..... I feel for their kids.


I did make one correction to your post.

 

[krazd_kat]

But for what has been obtained it is compelling that certain types do more damage (the bigger and stronger dogs). And I'm not talking bites, I am talking severe maimings and killings.

All I have been saying is that those that own these type dogs must exercise greater control and that they aren't for everyone. And yes I agree that some dogs will never attack at all, but there seems to be some that do. And of that some many are "pits/pit-type".

It seems like for the most part, the one's the love and defend the pits/pit-type and you Ken, seem to agree on a number of opinions. Yes, these dogs are not for everyone. Same as many breeds are not suitable for others or for others homes. So we all agree on this.

I think what many of the pit lovers have an issue with is the statement that "MANY" are pits/pit-type. That's where the disagreements on statistics are coming from. The fact that there are probably more bites not being reported that we will never know about as well as maulings and severe attacks ending in deaths - they won't make news as they are not sensational. They are not the PITS/PIT-TYPES and these newslines sell news, the others don't, so since the stats come from those sources, the numbers will forever remain skewed. Did you realize that if you go to the doctor with a bite from your OWN dog, that many times THAT bite will NEVER be reported to the authorities.

What the pit lovers have an issue with is if you take 200 pits/pit-types (and I'm talking the pits from responsible owners, not the drug dealers or tough guy wannabes) and 200 other dogs, (not small ones, lets us labradors, GSD's, Huskys, Collies, and this size dog) according to all "temperment" statistics, the pit group is going to be the most stable and least likely to have any HUMAN agression.

But in the same breath, the responsible pit owners, recognize that if there is an issue, that our dogs CAN and very may cause more damage. But that is only due to the fact that it is a more powerful dog.

Again, like you stress these dogs are NOT FOR EVERYONE.

Didn't you say you have a dog who's breed can have issues (I don't remember how you specifically said it)? Obviously that breed isn't for everyone either.

Just don't let the government tell us what responsible owners can have as our companions. The one's that need to be "governed" and "persecuted" are the owner's that allow and encourage ANY dog to be agressive and dangerous.

That's the bottom line on how I feel about these dogs. No one has to like my dog of choice, if I have invited someone to my home that is uncomfortable with my dogs I will remove my dogs to a different area of my home (I have gone through this for years with my Rottweilers), I will keep my dogs away from neighbors or the public that isn't comfortable with them, but when my dogs are secure in my home or yard, in my vehicle, or with me on a leash, remember that in a free society I DO have the right to own and love this breed, and we should always have the same freedoms and libertys as everyone other dog owner assumes is theirs.

Don't allow or encourage the government to make these dogs pay, when their only sin is being born.

 

[Lacie Girl]

Lacie Girl,

I'll agree that there are no true statistics, no numerical comparison as to incidents versus population of a breed and that many dogs could be misidentified, hell the CDC quit tracking the issue in 1998. So all we have are the newspaper reports to obtain any form of data and I suspect that some attacks never make the news. But for what has been obtained it is compelling that certain types do more damage (the bigger and stronger dogs). And I'm not talking bites, I am talking severe maimings and killings.

All I have been saying is that those that own these type dogs must exercise greater control and that they aren't for everyone. And yes I agree that some dogs will never attack at all, but there seems to be some that do. And of that some many are "pits/pit-type".

What do you think of the US Supreme Court ruling concerning breed specific bans and the Ohio law that was ruled to be Constitutional?

It's only obvious that larger dogs are going to cause more damage then smaller dogs. Common sense and logic dictate that. If you are going to keep saying "pits/pit-type" then I quess the question is, what breeds are you encompassing in that very broad term? If you are refering to the number of breeds that have a similar body style to the Pit Bulls (a term that only encompasses 3 breeds, the American Pit Bull Terrier, the American Staffordshire Terrier, and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier) than you are saying the many publicised dog attacks are caused by over 25 breeds of dogs. But how can you call that a fair judgement when many of the jack russell, pomeranian, beagle, etc bites aren't being reported. People immediately jump to conclusions when someone gets a scratch caused by a larger dog and we all know how much the media tends to blow their stories up. It is incredibly niave to take all media stories as fact.

I'd like everyone to take a look at the below link and tell me how many times it takes you to correctly find the APBT. I'm familiar with the breed and I didn't even get it right on the first time. This is a good test to show each of us how unfamiliar we really are with what a pit bull looks like.

Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull

Regarding BSL, I am very disappointed that people have become so closed minded regarding certain breeds of dogs. Though most of this legislation is geared strictly towards pit bulls (I have read one from Ohio that talks only about aggressive dogs in general and then at the bottom simply states "all Pit Bulls" with no other description of definition). But many dogs are now being included in BSL. Besides the ones that most people think of as aggressive dogs, GSD, Rotts, Pits, Huskys, etc. They are now starting to include family favorites such as Golden Retrivers and Labs. At the rate they are going, you will no longer be allowed to own any dog.

I personally have sworn to my dogs that I will never give them up if BSL comes knocking on our door. I will up and move if that ever becomes the case. My dogs are my best friends and have been loyal to me. Just as I wouldn't give up my kids (if I had any) if someone said that kids were no longer allowed, I won't give up my dogs. Nor will I subject them to constant muzzling outside the home (as many BSL laws are requiring, ie. Baltimore).

 

[Lacie Girl]

But in the same breath, the responsible pit owners, recognize that if there is an issue, that our dogs CAN and very may cause more damage. But that is only due to the fact that it is a more powerful dog.

Once again, this is where I beg to differ. A pit bull can physically do no more damage then any other dog comparable in size. Where people seem to get confused is when they say that the pit is stronger because it doesn't let go and is harder to dislodge. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the dogs jaw strength. This all has to do with the dog's "game".

Game is a term used to describe an animals will power. If a dog is willing to keep on doing what it is doing regardless of what is going on around it, then it is considered to have game. This is one of the traits that made Pits such a prized animal for butchers. As the butcher moved his bulls from market to slaughter, his dogs would help to control the animals until they got there. If a bull became unruly, the dog would latch onto the bulls nose and hang on until the butcher was able to get the bull back under control. The dog's game was prized because they would continue doing their job regardless of how much the bull thrashed them around.

A pit bull's "game" comes from the introduction of the terrier breeds. You know those silly cartoon pictures that we all laugh at where you see a mailmen with a jack russell latched onto their rear end? The jack that grabs on and holds has a lot of game. This is what has made the terrier group such a popular working dog.

So don't be mad the next time a pit grabs onto the rope toy and tugs with you around with all he's got. He's not being defiant by not giving it up. It's just that more often then not, he wants it more then you.

 

[krazd_kat]

Once again, this is where I beg to differ. A pit bull can physically do no more damage then any other dog comparable in size. Where people seem to get confused is when they say that the pit is stronger because it doesn't let go and is harder to dislodge. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the dogs jaw strength. This all has to do with the dog's "game".

Lacie Girl, you have beautiful dogs and it's obvious that you have worked with them and continue to make them great ambassadors.

But even I do not believe that statement. I said nothing about not letting go and making it harder to dislodge, although I had a heck of a fight between an 8 month old pit mix puppy and an adult catahoula that even with two people trying to break up this fight and trying to shove a metal cage piece between the two dogs as well as puling up hind legs, I didn't think we would ever get the puppy off the other dog.

Call it "game" if you like but if that is what makes them so determined, then the general public has absolutely no business with a pit that exhibits "game". Even if it is a responsible owner, they need to be aware and admit that these dogs can and sometimes do present a larger danger to the public, even if it's due to the publics ignorance around these dogs. Please note that when I say "public", I am referring to the publics animals as I do not believe that human agression is often displayed by a well balanced pit.

I have a foster dog that has no issues with other dogs, can and will walk by them without any display of agression, UNTIL the other dog invades his space and gets growly in his face, then he will growl and make it plain to the other to back down. And it never fails that when that happens, my dog is immediately labeled as the "dog agressive pit", while it was thier dog that they were failing to control that caused the issue.

If you look at my site Second Hope Rescue you will see how many pits we currently have in our program and how many we have already adopted as well as the other strong breeds. But I will not adopt one of these dogs to someone that refuses to believe what they are capable of and if the only exercise these dogs are going to get is a dog park, I will not adopt under those circumstances either. I do not believe that any of these dogs need to be at a dog park, no matter what happens it will ALWAYS be the pits, rotts, mastiffs, etc., fault and another black mark on their breeds.

I NEVER thought when I started doing rescue that I would become such a huge pit advocate, in fact I had never given them much thought except to make sure when I saw one in public that my dog wasn't in it's space. After working with them and getting close to them at the shelter I was a convert and will now do my best to save as many as I can. My group is also one of the few in this area that can or will help one over the age of 1, and that includes almost all the strong breeds (unless it's a breed rescue).

 

[Lacie Girl]

But even I do not believe that statement. I said nothing about not letting go and making it harder to dislodge...

Call it "game" if you like but if that is what makes them so determined, then the general public has absolutely no business with a pit that exhibits "game".

Hi Krazd_kat! I know that you didn't mention a pits ability to hang on and my response was a misunderstanding of what you said. I apologise for that. You had mentioned that they are a more powerful breed and I took that to mean the common misconception that Pits have stronger/locking jaws and more bite power then the average dog which is totally not the case.

Let me clarify the term "game" a little bit. "Game" is a technical term that is used amongst many breeds that possess this characteristic. It does not only refer to the dogs ability to bite and hold. It is used to define any dog's determination to carry on. This could mean that a competitive weight pull dog that keeps trying to pull even though the weight is beyond them has game. A search and rescue dog that continues to search even though they are exhausted is said to have game. It is just a term to describe dogs with extreme determination (which happens to be prevelent amongst terriers).

It is sad when our dogs are minding their own business and when approached by another dog are forced to take the defensive and be labeled by uneducated people as aggressive. It is these bad stigmas that I work so hard to prevent and educate people on the true breed of the Pit Bull.

I said right off the bat that Pits are not for the average dog owner. Anyone that owns/wants to own a Pit needs to be educated about the breed. This goes for ALL breeds of dogs as they all have their histories. I know that when I got my first pit, I did extensive research into their history so that I could better understand them and help to educate the public. I never wish to be labeled as the irresponsible owner and go to great extremes to prevent that. We all need to be aware that as our dogs mature, they have the potential to become dog aggressive. I am not niave to this fact. However, just because they are pit bulls doesn't mean that they will become aggressive. I am constantly watching my dogs as they interact with other dogs for any signs of aggression (knock on wood, I haven't seen any yet). I want to be able to stop them before something escalates into a full blown fight.

As for the dog park, I don't agree with you. The dog park is a great way to socialize your dogs (any breed) as well as help other people who don't have much experience with Pits to get to know the breed. Granted, there will be dog parks that the Pits will be turned away. However, I live in Lexington Park and go to the new park on Willows Rd. Lex Park has a high Pit population (both good and bad dogs). So my dogs are more welcome here then they would be in, say, Charles County. The large bully-type breeds are not always labeled as the aggressor in the bickers that happen. I can't tell you how many times it's the labs that cause the spats. This is a pretty open minded area (in my experience with the people at the dog park) and even when one of mine get caught up in the spats, the rightful owner is usually quick to jump in and take blame for their dog.

I am glad to hear that you rescue and will definately look at all of the great things that your rescue is doing. I wish you and everyone else involved the best of luck in finding all of your foster kids homes.

PS Congrats on the convert. We need more open minded people like you who will judge them for what they are, not what people make them out to be.

 

[unixpirate]

Beyond the Myth

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